Chariots

[mad lemmey]

The 38 chariots in my army dream of melee expert!

[martymagnificent]

Which army?

It is always more of a positive when an option.

Martin

[Jilu]

so if in the example you show us you take the same characteristic but for Cavalry, the cavalry will be more expensive in points.
in open comp? give me chariots...and leave the cav at home, the chariots are deadly and way better than cav.

[martymagnificent]

so if in the example you show us you take the same characteristic but for Cavalry, the cavalry will be more expensive in points.
in open comp? give me chariots...and leave the cav at home, the chariots are deadly and way better than cav.

They are slightly cheaper (5 or 10 points I think) but less able to handle terrain. If that is enough to make them such a winner you seem to be the only one who has realised.

Partially the issue is that run away cav armies generally don't want to have anything much else in them or if they have other things they need to be of specific types (you don't want to leave your opponent a target while the cavalry runs). Most chariot armies cant avoid having a fair bit of other stuff because they just aren't allowed that many chariots or they have significant infantry minimums. Even if the chariots become good horse archers most of the armies will still not be good horse archer armies.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Marty/Jilu

I think that is trying to make them type (d).
To me they are shoot and strike armies with shooting foot support.
I don't think that makes them better or worse.

More a character of their own in open comps.
And more balanced between each other in period - where previously the BCh armies would dominate all.

I rather fancy using one of the biblical armies with these changes.
Will try it in the next open competition after MoaB (where I have been asked to bring a 2019 Classical Indian)

S

[martymagnificent]

More a character of their own in open comps.

By making different types of chariots more like each other and all chariots more like cavalry?

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

More a character of their own in open comps.

By making different types of chariots more like each other and all chariots more like cavalry?

I do sense your frustration Marty and don't wish to do something that is not seen as a net + by players.  Would be good to hear from there chariot users and would be chariot users as well? 

To me at present they have no character at all in open comps as almost never seen. 
Don't think I have seen one played in the UK.  Saw one in US and it got battered.
BCh is a bit of a liability in most open comps.  In period BCh is a bit of an overkill.

So my sense is we win/win as a game.
They become playable in open comps now and in period you get the same effects anyway overall as even without S effects and an extra + at impact the big ones are deadly vs loose formation foot in the open.

The extra variety of characteristics is quite large, so we have much more variety within type than other rule systems.  One of the big pluses.  And DC when added gives back the BCh effect to a fair degree for the few we want to work that way.

All I would ask now is give the armies you like with BCh a try under this alteration and then report back. Obviously play them differently.

For my part I would never field a biblical army in an open comp but now I am liking the look of several.... I am not the crash in head on type though.

S

[martymagnificent]

Perhaps more players need to give them a try as they are.

I won an open comp with an army using 24 battle-chariots.

https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=242.0

I was a little fortunate in that there weren't many knight present, but it can be done.

I'm not saying its easy to make them work but from the look of the UK comp results you aren't seeing light chariots either. This would suggest the changes are unlikely to help in making the armies competitive.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

I've seen a few more more light chariots in use.
NKE and Hittites.
Is there an AAR you can relate to for the comp?
Are you at MaoB as a great place to chat better.
Si

[RobAustin]

In my Gallic army I use light chariots and cavalry, half and half. I like the chariots' better shooting. I would not be averse to running all chariots, but you go to war with the army you have!

I also have a Mycenaean Greek, but have not used it so much. I do like the suggestion of changing the Dendra riders to LCh, since it was weird having light and battle chariots that looked basically the same.

We have several Classical Indian armies here. In essence, no one runs battle chariots more than once. After that, just leave them home and bring elephants.

[martymagnificent]

I've seen a few more more light chariots in use.
NKE and Hittites.
Is there an AAR you can relate to for the comp?
Are you at MaoB as a great place to chat better.
Si

It was a while back, but from memory:

Game One was against Trevor and his Spartans. Long Spear, melee expert, lots of superiors and one exceptional. An interesting game where I exploited the Battlechariots total freedom with regards to charges in order to survive. Basically the Spartans charged the chariots, would fight a scary impact, a very favourable melee and then the chariots would break off and we would start again. At the same time I pressured the flanks of the Spartans with my infantry but found that the Spartans were supremely untroubled by second rate Chinese foot either to the front or rear. The single unit of Spartan cavalry died an entirely predictable and rapid death as well as a handfull of skirmishers. Ended in a draw

Game two was against Tony and Early Imperial Roman. This was his second game of MeG and, thank to some extreme dice rolls, the chariots rode straight over the legionaries. My favourite combat of the comp saw a unit of chariots obliterate a fresh unit of legionaries in a single impact phase thanks to some truly exceptional rolling. Tony did nothing wrong. Deployed in a tight block with secure flanks. It just didn't matter. 15-0 to me.

Game three was against Craig and his Free Company. He really wanted some terrain for his loose infantry and to narrow the front. He got none. As a result I managed to get the chariots and my polearm infantry in to his lose infantry and dismounted men at arms and this went in my favour. He had some knights but they were neither numerous or top quality and were unable to make a difference. 15-2 to me.

Game 4 was Paul and another Imperial Roman army. I dont remember this game very well. I think he may have had an Armenian ally or something similar. I suspect the chariots went through the Roman foot in a series of charges. 15-0 to me.

I was lucky not to play the Serbian (chock full of good quality knights).

I will be at MOAB but I am playing FOGN (I don't get as many opportunities for games of that). Will definitely come over to check out the MeG action and to say hello.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Thanks.  All good.
See you at MaoB.
I used to play FoGN a lot in the UK comps.

Glorie de Guerre is well on the way.

If you fancy joining in the testing next year let me know.

Si

[martymagnificent]

Happy to have a look at playtesting them but I'm pretty keen on V2 of FOGN (as are my regular Napoleonic opponents)

Should have a chance to give 'new recipe' chariots a go this weekend. Will let you know how it goes.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Great that would be good.
Yes FoGN is a good set of rules.
By far the best so far.
Alas not played much anywhere now though.

Terry did a great Jon on the rules.
But it was very badly written unfortunately.
Took me ages to work it out.

S

[Jilu]

Great that would be good.
Yes FoGN is a good set of rules.
By far the best so far.
Alas not played much anywhere now though.

Terry did a great Jon on the rules.
But it was very badly written unfortunately.
Took me ages to work it out.

S

i fuly agree, played some FOGN with Jacques

Back to chariots, what bugs me in open comp...is that we will see chariot armies with skilled shooters and not much else.
on top of that skilled cav armies are rare..most only have 1/2/4 or 1/2 of skilled shooters max and some cantabrian witch will be worse of against chariots as the will have to evade fleeing not skirmishing.

if shoot and charge the chariots will simply outshoot cav and kill them in melee as only few cav armies have bow/melee expert