Chariots

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Interesting and good to test out for sure.
We need to be sure they do not dominate cavalry armies like for like.
That wouldn't be historical.

Si

[badhabum]

Hence it must be tested for some time not published untested

[martymagnificent]

Hence it must be tested for some time not published untested

Except that the issue brought up by Jilu was not really about the changes. Chariots already have a high proportion of skilled and shoot and charge. It was, in fact, suggesting chariots are already too good in the match up with shooty cavalry.

Martin

[martymagnificent]

I had a try with the new chariots this morning. I took my, previously successful, Five Hegemons list and modified it to suit the new classifications (see attached list). As the chariots now cost significantly more (and I had upped a general to 4 cards in anticipation of needing better cards to make up for fewer free charges) I had to make all 24 bases of archers combat shy. Other than this, essentially the same list. I made the superior chariots devastating charger so I could try both types.

I played Paul R and his new Trastamara Spanish list (with Italian States Allies). He had 3 6 base knight units (allies), mounted crossbow, jinetes, 4 colunela and 2 pike blocks.

The result of the game wasn't really determined by the new classifications. Paul deployed across an open table with (from one flank to another) his colunella and Jinets opposing my mixed , his pike and mounted crossbow in front of my superior chariots and his knight command in front of my average chariots and polearm foot. Paul advanced too enthusiastically with the knights (understandably confident) but failed to pin the superior chariots with his pike (He was recovering from a night out). As a result one of the superior chariots units turned and ploughed in to the side of his knight command and this tipped the combat in my favour. His colunela were chewing slowly but surely through the mixed units but not quickly enough to make up for the collapse of the other flank.

Some thoughts on how the chariots fared in these match ups as opposed to how they would have done as the old battlechariots.

1) Against the knights (or indeed any other lancer or elephant) the new classification is unquestionably better. You can either evade or you get a factor as devastating charger you wouldn't have as a Battlechariot. Of course many favour Longspear cavalry as their shock arm these days and against them the old battlechariots were a better option.

2) Against other types of mounted (like the mounted crossbow) it is a mixed bag. You are more likely to catch them thanks to your 5 mu movement but they have less reason to fear fighting you as you no longer have the battle chariot factors.

3) Against pretty much all sorts of infantry I would still prefer to be the old battlechariots. They just don't have as much reason to fear you know. I loved the way battlechariots could sit in front of even pikeman and it was risky for them to charge thanks to the impact factors. Now you are either a weaker, more expensive version of a battlechariot (if you have devastating charger) or you are just another run away horse archer. You also wont be able to ride down foot shooters/ tribal hordes/ Romans/ shieldwalls etc anywhere near as well as you could.

The extra movement and slightly easier ability to back up are sometimes generally useful

Devastating charger represents very poor value under the current points regime. My chariots were paying 18 points a base and losing their evade to sometimes get a single impact factor. If this is how 'heavier' combat chariots are going to be represented it needs to be free. There is no way you will see anyone taking it otherwise (and even then I suspect many would prefer to keep the evade).

Martin

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[badhabum]

Hence it must be tested   

I was not referencing only to Jean-Luc's comment ( JILU ) but all the changes . IMO the proposed modifications for chariots and so on first need to be tested. All tournaments prior july 2020 should either follow the rules as they are NOW or be specified as test games for the new rules to be published in july 2020 when the changes have been tested . My opinion but I fear new rules untested based on what we think should be changed , published too soon and then ...we have what has been criticized ...a new update.

Rules will never be perfect and in french we say : le mieux est l'ennemi du bien . The better is the enemy of what is good .

[martymagnificent]

Had another trial game. This time I used Paul R's Assyrian models as the list Simon posted. He used Ordonance French. Managed a win with the Assyrians. The exceptional chariots proved capable of handling some average knights and superior chariots managed to ride down some loose infantry in the open.

Nothing really happened that changed my thinking from my previous test game. Former battle-chariots are now better against knights. Different against other mounted (pros/cons) and less effective against pretty much everything on foot.

I'm still inclined to see it overall as a weakening. There are a lot more foot out there than lancers.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Martin, thanks and all helpful.
Jacques, they are being tested.
I never do anything without testing them out a fair bit.

But I am listening and can feel the "its great already so change as little as possible" sentiment coming through.
Am pondering therefore.

Si

[martymagnificent]

Martin, thanks and all helpful.
Jacques, they are being tested.
I never do anything without testing them out a fair bit.

But I am listening and can feel the "its great already so change as little as possible" sentiment coming through.
Am pondering therefore.

Si

No problem. It is not as bad a change as I first thought. I still don't, however, see it as an improvement from a gameplay POV (ie I don't think you will start seeing more chariots in comp as a result). Implementing the proposed changes to prompting through fire and the cost of bow may help a little.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Thanks.  I didn't think it was but still that you see it as a net - is something we must bear in mind.
We are testing today as a team.

Si

[nikgaukroger]

And very useful the testing was indeed. Personally I felt things worked well, a bit differently compared to now of course, but went well - felt more like I imagine chariots to have worked.

[badhabum]

What is more important if you want to change the chariots is NOT to discuss if it seems more historical but do the changes PLEASE the chariot lover players 

Are they happy with it

Unfortunately, for now , we do not play enough in Belgium to test the new rules

[nikgaukroger]

What is more important if you want to change the chariots is NOT to discuss if it seems more historical but do the changes PLEASE the chariot lover players 

Are they happy with it

Unfortunately, for now , we do not play enough in Belgium to test the new rules

Well, I am adding more chariots to my Hittites because of it and am doing another army with chariots because they are now no longer Battle Chariots and will, IMO, work better.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

After todays testing I am likely to field a chariot army for the first time.
Never been my favourite period bit I like how the Assyrians play now.
Even in open.

S

[martymagnificent]

I think many underestimate how good battlechariots already are. I find they only really struggle against knights (and probably elephants).

Martin

[mad lemmey]

And warwagons...