Chariots

[martymagnificent]

And warwagons...

True, although beyond my experience. I would also point out that the 'new' chariots will not really be any better.

Martin

[martymagnificent]

Well, I am adding more chariots to my Hittites because of it and am doing another army with chariots because they are now no longer Battle Chariots and will, IMO, work better.

Out of curiosity what did you gents actually test? Which match ups do you feel they handle better now? I just can't shake the impression they are losing more than they are gaining.

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

In terms of Battle Chariots, which I guess are the ones you are asking about, I've tested around the Assyrian ones in the Assyria and Babylon list set, including the late very heavy chariots. I know Richard has tested wider and that Simon has looked at Chinese chariots in his testing. FWIW I've also revisited the earlier maryannu types as a bit of a comparison.

Where I see the new scheme as better is in the overall behavior and how you use these chariots, it fits my view of how they operated batter than the Battle Chariot classification - other than the very late Assyrian, etc. ones they are not battering rams, they need more finesse than that.

[martymagnificent]

So they are 'better' in a historical accuracy sense, not actually stronger in game play. Why would that lead to you adding more of them to your list?

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

I actually think they are better in game play than when they were Battle Chariots - different from then, but I prefer the flexibility they now have.

If you're just looking for a batter ram approach they will be worse, but I'm not.

That they are, IMO, more historical is also important as I like my troops to operate in an historically based manner 

Oh, and in terms of armies the change also means I am including chariots in my Han build options - I wasn't going to when they were Battle Chariots.

[martymagnificent]

I actually think they are better in game play than when they were Battle Chariots - different from then, but I prefer the flexibility they now have.

If you're just looking for a batter ram approach they will be worse, but I'm not.

That they are, IMO, more historical is also important as I like my troops to operate in an historically based manner 

Oh, and in terms of armies the change also means I am including chariots in my Han build options - I wasn't going to when they were Battle Chariots.

If by 'Battering ram' you mean I wan't them to beat some opposition frontally without first engaging in a drawn out process of repeated shooting and evading, then yes I consider that stronger. Especially in MeG where if you are a white dice shooter (like all Chinese chariots) you would often be able to shoot for the entire duration of a competition game against some opposition without having enough of an effect.

I actually see this as a fairly simple equation. The current battlechariots generally have no reason to evade from anything they get their factor against. This means there is only a narrow range of opposition where losing their factors and gaining an evade is a win.

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

If by 'Battering ram' you mean I wan't them to beat some opposition frontally without first engaging in a drawn out process of repeated shooting and evading, then yes I consider that stronger.

Its as good a definition as any without getting bogged down in when you may or may not want to evade

And if that is what you're looking for most chariots will now not meet that (assuming the change goes through).

[martymagnificent]

And if that is what you're looking for most chariots will now not meet that (assuming the change goes through).

None of them will meet it as well as they do currently.

Unless there are details in the changes I'm unaware of, I'm still hoping battlechariots stay as they are.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

So they are 'better' in a historical accuracy sense, not actually stronger in game play. Why would that lead to you adding more of them to your list?

Martin

Nothing is better or stronger in game p;lay Martin.  That is the job of he points system.  All are equal for their points.

S

[Simon Meg-Meister]

I actually think they are better in game play than when they were Battle Chariots - different from then, but I prefer the flexibility they now have.

If you're just looking for a batter ram approach they will be worse, but I'm not.

That they are, IMO, more historical is also important as I like my troops to operate in an historically based manner 

Oh, and in terms of armies the change also means I am including chariots in my Han build options - I wasn't going to when they were Battle Chariots.

If by 'Battering ram' you mean I wan't them to beat some opposition frontally without first engaging in a drawn out process of repeated shooting and evading, then yes I consider that stronger. Especially in MeG where if you are a white dice shooter (like all Chinese chariots) you would often be able to shoot for the entire duration of a competition game against some opposition without having enough of an effect.

I actually see this as a fairly simple equation. The current battlechariots generally have no reason to evade from anything they get their factor against. This means there is only a narrow range of opposition where losing their factors and gaining an evade is a win.

Martin

Except Charging Lancers which are one of the most prevalent troop type in the game .... 
and any Pike or Long Spear foot who are happy to risk a Shatter against them at contact and ...
.... and anything with Impact Weapon that is also a Melee Expert that can do the same.
I would gladly attack Superior Battle Chariots with any of these at the moment.

I found it mich easier to get the aggressive ones into the right places now they move 5 as cavalry.
And the flex to hold a bit was perfect.  That was in a mixed arms army of Chinese.

I've tried Hittites, NKE and Late Assyrians down here as well.

S

[martymagnificent]

Nothing is better or stronger in game p;lay Martin.  That is the job of he points system.  All are equal for their points.

That is a little like historical objectivity, a noble aim but never actually achieved. MeG is better than most.

Except Charging Lancers which are one of the most prevalent troop type in the game .... 
and any Pike or Long Spear foot who are happy to risk a Shatter against them at contact and ...
.... and anything with Impact Weapon that is also a Melee Expert that can do the same.
I would gladly attack Superior Battle Chariots with any of these at the moment.

They will undeniably be better against lancers although I think longspear cavalry have eaten in to their 'prevalance' a bit. Foot who charge them are risking more than a 'shatter' they are fighting an impact that is generally red on white (longspear foot charging a superior battlechariot with shortspear) and that's after the shooting in the charge. The foot can drag it back in the melee but charging battlechariots is always a risky move.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Nothing is better or stronger in game p;lay Martin.  That is the job of he points system.  All are equal for their points.

That is a little like historical objectivity, a noble aim but never actually achieved. MeG is better than most.


ONE KEY OBJECTIVE.  Mortem et Gloriam IS VERY CLOSE NOW.  ALL OTHERS HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN FUNDAMENTALLY ADN BADLY FLAWED.  FOG (take all Superiors)/DBM (Blades not worth the money)/ADLG (mix thereof) ALL ARE.

Except Charging Lancers which are one of the most prevalent troop type in the game .... 
and any Pike or Long Spear foot who are happy to risk a Shatter against them at contact and ...
.... and anything with Impact Weapon that is also a Melee Expert that can do the same.
I would gladly attack Superior Battle Chariots with any of these at the moment.

They will undeniably be better against lancers although I think longspear cavalry have eaten in to their 'prevalance' a bit. Foot who charge them are risking more than a 'shatter' they are fighting an impact that is generally red on white (longspear foot charging a superior battlechariot with shortspear) and that's after the shooting in the charge. The foot can drag it back in the melee but charging battlechariots is always a risky move.

Martin

In case I an missing something ... very tired form trip to uk ... but ...

Average Hoplites would be +2 for Long Spear;  so as BCh I just have to get in the right place and you will often have to charge me. Then it's a disaster for the chariots. 2-1 at contact will be the end of them. They haven't the numbers to survive that.

If the Hoplites charge then your Superior Battle Chariot with Short Spear would be +4 instead of +1 (1 for Sup, 1 for BCh, 1 for SSp, 1 for charging foot).  So YELLOW-WHITE?  Where is the other one for RED-WHITE?  Maybe I am missing somethin? Big difference.

4 wide gives average damage from 1.33W vs chariots from 4 WHITE DICE and 3.33W on the spearmen from 4 YELLOW DICE, excluding shatter risks.  So Chariots on average carry a W and Spearmen on average lose 1 base and a wound. In Melee it's then +2 for the spears and +1 for the chariots on three files and 0 vs +1 on the other.  3G/1W each = 2.33 vs 1.67 Total losses pre-shatter = Chariots 3.67; Spearmen 5.00. So pretty even given a 4 vs. and 8, and the spearmen wouldn't be 2 deep they would have 2 reserves so actually worse.  So no big shatter result and chariots are in trouble.  Much worse vs. Pikes.

Am I missing something, as I would gladly take on your chariots with a wall of Tribal Long Spear right now .... under the proposed changes the chariots do much much better as they are not forced to stand so they have all the initiative and are harder to press for a while giving a chance to weaken the spears.

Si

[martymagnificent]

You are actually missing a few things

so as BCh I just have to get in the right place and you will often have to charge me

No BCH with a bow (which is pretty much all of them) ever has to charge anyone. Charges are always free but never compulsory

If the Hoplites charge then your Superior Battle Chariot with Short Spear would be +4 instead of +1 (1 for Sup, 1 for BCh, 1 for SSp, 1 for charging foot).  So YELLOW-WHITE?  Where is the other one for RED-WHITE?  Maybe I am missing somethin? Big difference.

BCH is not +1, it is +2. As a result the chariots are red on white. They will also throw either 3 white or 3 green as they charge from their shooting. I'm not saying I would love to fight a wall of longspear (which mounted army would?) but BCH aren't at all bad at it.

I'm not sure you guys should be making changes to battlechariots if you don't fully appreciate what they do now.

Martin

[Kokor Hekkus]

Do the Hopilites get shield cover ?

[martymagnificent]

Do the Hopilites get shield cover ?

No

Martin