Chariots

[nikgaukroger]

Could Paul share his list with me and I will give the new version a go.

Si

Sent to you by email - it was posted in the comp results forum.

Its one where the chariots change quite a bit from charging types to shooty/skirmish types but with useful combat options for (probably) after softening up - the army will not work in the same way under the revisions.

[martymagnificent]

Could Paul share his list with me and I will give the new version a go.

Si

Sent to you by email - it was posted in the comp results forum.

Its one where the chariots change quite a bit from charging types to shooty/skirmish types but with useful combat options for (probably) after softening up - the army will not work in the same way under the revisions.

If the 'useful combat option' is melee expert I would suggest a sensible player would not willingly spend the points. Essentially what we will have is the same as light chariots now (ie shifting from one unpopular option to another!). In fact Paul has experimented extensively with the Assyrian lists where the chariots are already lights (in games with me) and came to the conclusion that while the Battle-chariots are not awesome they are still a better option than the lights.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Just done my shot at the points system for chariots and run through an Assyrian army mentioned from Australia.
Clearly it changes the army from tanks to more subtety but to me makes it a better army with time to get value from its skilled shooting chariots.
Effectively you swap  BCH/4BW/Impetuous for ability to evade/5BW/Control.  Following is the old army repointed for 2020 ... gives you spare points make the Palace Chariots Exceptional.
Second one is my preferred design with new way of playing it.  Must say I prefer the second and would fear it more than the first.
Those who like head on tank charges will of course prefer the old one.

Si

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[Simon Meg-Meister]

My preferred Neo-Assyrian now ...
Pretty potent army IMHO ... even in open period.
The chariots will be a real handful now as don't have to charge and are dangerous with 5BW move and filled shooting.

Si

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[martymagnificent]

Simon you keep saying they 'don't have to charge', have more 'control' and are no longer 'impetuous'. This is not the case. Battle chariots with missile weapons already had the best of all worlds on this. They could charge for free but never had to. The changes make them less controllable as they lose the free charge.

I hope the melee expert will at least be optional. It is an expensive upgrade that is unattractive on a unit that probably wants to evade/break off whenever possible.

All I see is a small manouverable army that no longer has a real strike arm.

Martin

[Rino]

Simon, your neo  Assyrian army list looks like an NKE one save the shoot and charge and mêlée expert...

[nikgaukroger]

Simon, your neo  Assyrian army list looks like an NKE one save the shoot and charge and mêlée expert...

And that the infantry are rather different and it has some cavalry. So not like a NKE really other than in the broadest terms that it has chariots and infantry ...

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Simon, your neo  Assyrian army list looks like an NKE one save the shoot and charge and mêlée expert...

That's a rather big difference....  S

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Simon you keep saying they 'don't have to charge', have more 'control' and are no longer 'impetuous'. This is not the case. Battle chariots with missile weapons already had the best of all worlds on this. They could charge for free but never had to. The changes make them less controllable as they lose the free charge.

I hope the melee expert will at least be optional. It is an expensive upgrade that is unattractive on a unit that probably wants to evade/break off whenever possible.

All I see is a small manouverable army that no longer has a real strike arm.

Martin

Yes you are correct on the forced charges. Sorry.  Forgot I freed them last time from it. 

I see it a bit differently. 
It's a delayed strike army now. 

Quite an interesting character to it.

Teutonic Knights = strike army
Byzantines = shoot & strike army
Assyrian = sustained shoot & delayed strike army
HA or NKE = sustained shoot & finish off army

So yes it move heavy chariots out os type (a-) to type (c) but I do think that is their real historical character and makes them more playable in open comps as they are not as good an (a) as knights in Mortem et Gloriam.  Also better reflects the real evolution to cavalry over chariots.

So if you want assyrians to be an a- you won't be keen, but I think it is much better as a c+ and we will see more of them in non-biblical comps.

Si

[martymagnificent]

I would have said they are not a type a (using your list) and are already a type b. Their shooting is already a vital part of what they do and not just when they charge either.

Yes they struggle with knights at the moment but there are plenty of things they do better than this new version will (like sit in front of virtually any infantry and shoot whilst daring them to charge and ride down less impressive cavalry). What are these new chariots going to do against knights anyway? Run away and expose their light spear/bow infantry to certain destruction would seem the most likely scenario. I don't get the impression Knight armies are exactly terrified of shoot and scoot mounted at the moment and the chariot armies will never be good shoot and scoot lists anyway because of all the second rate infantry many of them need to protect.

We don't see many light chariot bow armies in open comp now. There is no reason to leap at the chance to run the same thing but saddled with extra capabilities you don't want.

Martin

[Simon Meg-Meister]

I would have said they are not a type a (using your list) and are already a type b. Their shooting is already a vital part of what they do and not just when they charge either.

Yes they struggle with knights at the moment but there are plenty of things they do better than this new version will (like sit in front of virtually any infantry and shoot whilst daring them to charge and ride down less impressive cavalry). What are these new chariots going to do against knights anyway? Run away and expose their light spear/bow infantry to certain destruction would seem the most likely scenario. I don't get the impression Knight armies are exactly terrified of shoot and scoot mounted at the moment and the chariot armies will never be good shoot and scoot lists anyway because of all the second rate infantry many of them need to protect.

We don't see many light chariot bow armies in open comp now. There is no reason to leap at the chance to run the same thing but saddled with extra capabilities you don't want.

Martin

Yes they are more a (b) I suppose in that list.
Some people will like them as (b) and some as (c).
Can't help that.

I think as (c) they are a lot more capable in open comps.

Clearly you won't want the extras if you want to play it (b) style...  that is kind of self-fulfilling.  (a) and (b) armies fear (c) much more than (b) or (d) I would say. Anything skilled that can evade but still handle a melee is pretty dangerous.

Yes they struggle with knights at the moment but there are plenty of things they do better than this new version will (like sit in front of virtually any infantry and shoot whilst daring them to charge and ride down less impressive cavalry).

On these though isn't it just different in the right tactics.  Infantry will still not charge you easily, and you just break off and shoot again. Much more dangerous to be be able to skirmish back and shoot repeatedly rather than stand and fight.

On the cavalry you now sit and tempt them to charge you bit yes you cannot ride them down so easily in one go. Skirmish back and take the hit if they reach you.  Have a field day if they don't.  Feels more powerful versus both those opponents as you get time to make full use of shooting in the new version where as BCh you get 1 shot.

S

[martymagnificent]

If you are going to play the evade and break off game Melee capabilities represent poor value because you won't get the multiple rounds of grinding melee that make these expensive upgrades worthwhile. They also tip units that have already bough an impact capability and some of the games most expensive shooting over the point where they are cost effective. They are simply over-equipped and are unlikely to make good use of it all. 

The sort of cavalry you could ride down with battlechariots will often never charge the new chariots as they will be able to win a shoot out with your 230 point each chariots through weight of numbers. You will often end up needing to charge them, you will just be less effective at it. It is not better to evade and shoot against charging infantry than fight them with the current battlechariots. Currently you respond to their charge by declaring your own (free), shoot and then fight at massive factors with shatter. Even longspear is significantly disadvantaged against most battle-chariots if the spear charge. You then break-off and repeat.

If what you were suggesting worked well it would already be working (probably more efficiently) with the current light chariots.

Martin

[Dru]

Not a fan. Light Chariots aren't great. Now we are just getting more flavour of light chariots.

At least I won't have to buy my Chariot period army now!

Dru

[Simon Meg-Meister]

If you are going to play the evade and break off game Melee capabilities represent poor value because you won't get the multiple rounds of grinding melee that make these expensive upgrades worthwhile. They also tip units that have already bough an impact capability and some of the games most expensive shooting over the point where they are cost effective. They are simply over-equipped and are unlikely to make good use of it all. 

The sort of cavalry you could ride down with battlechariots will often never charge the new chariots as they will be able to win a shoot out with your 230 point each chariots through weight of numbers. You will often end up needing to charge them, you will just be less effective at it. It is not better to evade and shoot against charging infantry than fight them with the current battlechariots. Currently you respond to their charge by declaring your own (free), shoot and then fight at massive factors with shatter. Even longspear is significantly disadvantaged against most battle-chariots if the spear charge. You then break-off and repeat.

If what you were suggesting worked well it would already be working (probably more efficiently) with the current light chariots.

Martin

It doesn't due to lack of impact factors and melee expert.
It is what does work with HA armies with those things - Sassanids, Ottomans etc.
So yes it is already working.  Just not with chariots much.

S

[martymagnificent]

So the transformation of chariots in to cavalry with bigger bases will be complete? Horse archer armies aren't troubling the scorer here in Australia. They don't look like they rule the roost in UK comp results either (although the proposed changes to bow cost and prompting through fire may help )

If you decide to go ahead, and I would strongly prefer you didn't, there is no reason to not make melee expert optional. It is always a capability that is entirely open to interpretation. Let chariots keep some hope by giving them the choice.

Martin