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Author Topic: Keil  (Read 402 times)

badhabum

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Keil
« on: February 03, 2019, 12:33:31 PM »
A TUG with Keil characteristic is partially immune to flank charges.

If charged in the flank, if in a block with another pike with keil, it will fight as if the bases were facing the cgarger and one rank deep.

Now what about if the keil is already engaged to the front and fighting to the front or charged to the front ?

How do we resolve it ?

The flank charge is a flank charge as the phalanx is already fighting to the front or

The phalanx may fight "as if" one or two bases are turned on the side protecting the flank but then what about the frontal charge/fight ????

Some might argue that it fights to the front and has no flank no matter what but that would really be strange to me !

nikgaukroger

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Re: Keil
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 01:27:20 PM »
Some might argue that it fights to the front and has no flank no matter what

They'd do that on the basis it is what the rules say one assumes.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 04:17:59 PM »
That is not my understanding .

You either fight to the front or you turn to face the enemy on the flank.

Bases would fight as if they were turned ...no need to turn  but still they fight ...So it is not that simple to me as they cannot face to the front and to the flank at the same time.


lionheartrjc

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Re: Keil
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 04:52:40 PM »
My view (and I was responsible for suggesting this characteristic so it is probably my fault!).

If the keil file does not turn to face it is a single file. Treat it as a single file facing two opponents.   9.5C.6 (p 83) indicates it can only roll for one of these fights.


At impact:

If contacted solely in the flank, the file fights as if it was a 1 deep Pike file fighting frontally.   It does not turn to face (as this is still treated as a frontal charge).

If contacted in both front and flank, both enemy files fight but the Keil file chooses which file it wants to fight; either the file to the front (as if the file was not contacted in the flank) or the file that has contacted it in the flank (as 1 deep pike).  It would probably choose the former.

After impact:

The keil file still does not have to turn to face.  The enemy file could choose to align to the front (if the other rules for aligning are obeyed) but is unlikely to want to.
 If neither move the melee is treated as 1 deep pike vs enemy file factors.  The flank file could have a second file claiming an overlap (again as if fighting 1 deep pike).

Richard


badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 07:28:06 PM »
So Keil formation can never be charged in the flank, even if fighting to the front .

If that's what it is, then "keil" is rather cheap .The attacking unit never gets the +4 when charging the flank, never the + 2 for fighting in the flank.

And most of the swiss get to move as SUG ... a panzer division has been created  8)

craig.w

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Re: Keil
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 01:03:53 AM »
So Keil formation can never be charged in the flank, even if fighting to the front .

If that's what it is, then "keil" is rather cheap .The attacking unit never gets the +4 when charging the flank, never the + 2 for fighting in the flank.

And most of the swiss get to move as SUG ... a panzer division has been created  8)

A couple of Swiss pike blocks is very expensive. I think we should see if it is a game breaker before making snap judgements. I’ll go out on a limb and say Swiss won’t be the killer army of 2019... personally, I think the Kiel and fleet of foot are great characteristics for these pike blocks, it gives the flavour of the period.

For what it’s worth I haven’t seen too many pike blocks get flank charged. People tend to protect them.

lionheartrjc

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Re: Keil
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 08:22:15 AM »
The Late Swiss are strong but not undefeatable.  A 10,000 pt army will get you 5 TuGs of 8 pikemen and not much else.  That leaves it pretty vulnerable to skirmishing. 

Also if 4 deep, each TuG in a Keil can only ever fight with 2 files, but potentially if hit to front and flank could be fighting against 5 files, 3 of which are fighting only 1 deep pike.

The other trick of course is to force them to break the Kiel.  Then they suddenly become vulnerable in the flanks.

The remaining option is to get behind their rear. 


Richard

nikgaukroger

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Re: Keil
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 09:25:56 AM »
The remaining option is to get behind their rear. 

Where their Poor unfortified camp will be ...
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Keil
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 01:20:52 PM »
Quote
22. KIEL
TuGs with Kiel characteristic are adept at protecting and fighting to flank when in large formations - Swiss and Landsknechts being the primary exponents in this period.
1. If a TuG with Kiel is adjacent to (side edge contact and front bases aligned) another TuG with Kiel, bases fight to flank as if they were turned to face, but 1 rank deep (therefore gaining no rank factors but negating any +s to the enemy for flank charge or melee).
2. Rear charges, however, are just as devastating against Kiels as others.

So if hit on flank, bases contacted can fight as if frontal and 1 rank deep.  So Swiss will get 1 base, single rank pike so may cancel factors for mounted say, and +1 for Sup.  And suffer no +4 against.

But a base can only roll dice once so they then cannot contribute to the fight frontally.  Owners choice whether to roll dice to flank and weaken the front, or roll no dice and add to factors for the front.  Interesting decision.

Si


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badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 07:50:14 PM »
Yes but if it decide to use all 4 bases to the front, it still gets a base facing the flank assault even if it will not fight.

And a keil may be only 2 deep, it is still a keil  :)

Under good conditions, 5 keils can ruin your day ... and with 4 MU they can cross some rough terrain rather quickly ...


badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2019, 08:24:25 PM »
Well this WE I will see at rimble and rumble .
I tought about it and even if you charge in the "protected" flank with an average infantry spear unit ( as are many inf units of that time when not pike ) , during tha charge you will be on green ( short spear vs supérior ) , after that, on white as you face some superior unit...Hurray for the keil .

Average charging lancers have also a difficult time vs a keil even in the flank at best a green .

Wonder what will happen to the swiss this week-end  ;)

craig.w

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Re: Keil
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 01:15:39 AM »
Well this WE I will see at rimble and rumble .
I tought about it and even if you charge in the "protected" flank with an average infantry spear unit ( as are many inf units of that time when not pike ) , during tha charge you will be on green ( short spear vs supérior ) , after that, on white as you face some superior unit...Hurray for the keil .

Average charging lancers have also a difficult time vs a keil even in the flank at best a green .

Wonder what will happen to the swiss this week-end  ;)

An 8 strong superior swiss keil is 1432 points (179 points a base), not sure how many of those will be in an army ;) If the swiss fight with a base to their flank then they will lose a base frontally. I think in most cases the swiss will be using bases fighting frontally and copping unanswered hits in the side from short spear, shield cover troops troops who cost 77 points a base. Even if they are still 4 deep and choose to fight one base to the flank they will probably lose on white dice attrition. And once they lose the 4th rank they will be in real trouble.

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Keil
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 11:48:44 AM »
FWIW I found the swiss in a test game destroyed things frontally but suffered gradual attrition from flanks that made the second half of the game challenging. They took down 4 TuGs with ease but were then creaking trying to get the rest while the enemy nibbled back a few.  So felt quite close if played well on both sides. Will be fun to see how it plays this year.  The FoF is a challenge to cope with for sure.

S
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badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 12:23:07 PM »
When most of the armies at 10000 points will have a breakpoint around 5 or 6 ...4 units is much

badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 12:25:15 PM »
Quote
And once they lose the 4th rank they will be in real trouble.

Why, frontally they still are sup and get a +2 , they are still a keil so the white dice or the opponent have better be good  1 chance in 3 to get a wound. Playable but still not deadly . It takes time .