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Author Topic: Keil  (Read 400 times)

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Keil
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 05:20:17 PM »
When most of the armies at 10000 points will have a breakpoint around 5 or 6 ...4 units is much

Most break on 5 or 6 or are very mobile.
So my sense is that played well you can lose 3 to them and then cause them trouble.
Time will tell.

Si
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badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 07:23:47 PM »
We will see

At IWC most armies broke at 5 , only 2 at 6 .

And we had some infantry based armies ...

craig.w

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Re: Keil
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 04:58:05 AM »
It will be interesting to see if they use the break-off much (on yellow, no KAB). Their toughest contemporary opponents would be melee expert landsknechts and foot knights with melee expert or superior foot knights, both of which will be at a minus at impact and evens in melee. Interesting match ups!

I'm building some Italian wars armies, and I think these little characteristics really add to the flavour of the period, as long as they are appropriately costed I don't think they will be game breakers, but as you say, we'll see.   

badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2019, 10:34:28 AM »
The problem for me is simple : the italian war is a book thatconcerns some real late european armies and I fear a bit too late a so difficult to find a good match or tournament theme .

nikgaukroger

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Re: Keil
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2019, 12:03:47 PM »
I know RJC has suggested that the Italian Wars books should probably best be used as a stand alone and not incorporated with others in comps.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Keil
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2019, 12:10:46 PM »
All

Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.

Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.

Simon
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badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2019, 01:52:52 PM »
and after all, it is the organiser's decision  ;D

craig.w

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Re: Keil
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 10:09:20 AM »
All

Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.

Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.

Simon

I for one would be pretty annoyed if the Italian Wars lists suddenly became orphans, only to be used against each other (yes, I have 100+ landsknechts, Swiss and Italians in the painting queue).

I have to ask, why? Are they breaking the game, are they unbeatable? Is the technology too advanced? Lots of armies have firearms by the 15th century. Are they too late (If so I'd expect that Sengoku, Takeda, Nobunaga and Ikko Ikki should also be sent to the scrap heap, as they have firearms and are after the date of Late Swiss)

Who will Charles the Bold fight with the Late Swiss gone, or will Burgundian Ordonnance be red-carded too? Or will Late Swiss be moved into another book? In which case I'd argue what is the difference between Maximilian German and Late Swiss.

Maybe in France and the UK you are used to having themes, but in Oz, even when FoG was getting around 40 players to a comp, we weren't using themes. I don't have a problem with them and I'd gladly play in them, but the player base for MeG in Oz is way below the level we could run themed comps. If tournament organisers want to use themes, go ahead, but just pulling a book out of the game, when the armies have been usable for two years or more, I don't see the point. Like some of the list changes, it seems to be solving a non-existent problem.

If, after 6 months or so, Italian States or Trastamara Spanish is beating all comers then take a look at points etc, but just to delete 14 lists from a game where they have been happily living for two years without any problems, is not a way to keep the punters happy.  I'd be even less happy if it were an open comp and someone could rock up with Nobunaga Japanese chock-a-block with firearms and my Maximilian Germans or Late Swiss were banned.

Cheers,

Craig

« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 10:10:54 AM by craig.w »

Dru

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Re: Keil
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2019, 03:15:00 AM »
All

Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.

Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.

Simon

I for one would be pretty annoyed if the Italian Wars lists suddenly became orphans, only to be used against each other (yes, I have 100+ landsknechts, Swiss and Italians in the painting queue).

I have to ask, why? Are they breaking the game, are they unbeatable? Is the technology too advanced? Lots of armies have firearms by the 15th century. Are they too late (If so I'd expect that Sengoku, Takeda, Nobunaga and Ikko Ikki should also be sent to the scrap heap, as they have firearms and are after the date of Late Swiss)

Who will Charles the Bold fight with the Late Swiss gone, or will Burgundian Ordonnance be red-carded too? Or will Late Swiss be moved into another book? In which case I'd argue what is the difference between Maximilian German and Late Swiss.

Maybe in France and the UK you are used to having themes, but in Oz, even when FoG was getting around 40 players to a comp, we weren't using themes. I don't have a problem with them and I'd gladly play in them, but the player base for MeG in Oz is way below the level we could run themed comps. If tournament organisers want to use themes, go ahead, but just pulling a book out of the game, when the armies have been usable for two years or more, I don't see the point. Like some of the list changes, it seems to be solving a non-existent problem.

If, after 6 months or so, Italian States or Trastamara Spanish is beating all comers then take a look at points etc, but just to delete 14 lists from a game where they have been happily living for two years without any problems, is not a way to keep the punters happy.  I'd be even less happy if it were an open comp and someone could rock up with Nobunaga Japanese chock-a-block with firearms and my Maximilian Germans or Late Swiss were banned.

Cheers,

Craig

I'll second what Craig has posted.

Deleting lists after we've bought armies etc is a GREAT way to alienate your player base - especially those outside the UK who are trying to grow the scene and not yet at a point where themed comps are realistic (outside, maaaaybe, Classical).

A line had to be drawn somewhere. It was. 2 years ago. And maintained. Stick with what we’ve been provided, not redrawing an arbitrary cut off 2.5 years later.

Dru
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 03:39:25 AM by Dru »
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Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Keil
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2019, 07:48:23 AM »
If, after 6 months or so, Italian States or Trastamara Spanish is beating all comers then take a look at points etc, but just to delete 14 lists from a game where they have been happily living for two years without any problems, is not a way to keep the punters happy.  I'd be even less happy if it were an open comp and someone could rock up with Nobunaga Japanese chock-a-block with firearms and my Maximilian Germans or Late Swiss were banned.

Don't jumpy to conclusions chaps. Nothing will get banned.
Merely assuring that we are watching it as one of the few remaining balance/nloundary issues that's all.

First I don't think they will dominate - which is why my vote was for in. I will gladly fight them all with Romans or Gauls.
Second if they did, we would look only drop them temporarily and look at the lists to make them compatible.

Si
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 07:50:31 AM by Simon Meg-Meister »
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craig.w

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Re: Keil
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2019, 12:19:51 PM »
This is somewhat reassuring...


Don't jumpy to conclusions chaps. Nothing will get banned.


These two, however, are not. I'm not sure even why it is under discussion whether to remove them or not? Is it some ideological reason - simply too late? Honestly, I'm perplexed why they would be taken out after two years in the game.

I know RJC has suggested that the Italian Wars books should probably best be used as a stand alone and not incorporated with others in comps.

All

Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.

Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.

Simon

 

accard

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Re: Keil
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2019, 01:04:59 PM »
I think they should be allowed but it should count as a slur on one's character if one actually wins a tournament with them. :)

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Keil
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2019, 03:11:39 PM »
This is somewhat reassuring...


Don't jumpy to conclusions chaps. Nothing will get banned.


These two, however, are not. I'm not sure even why it is under discussion whether to remove them or not? Is it some ideological reason - simply too late? Honestly, I'm perplexed why they would be taken out after two years in the game.

I know RJC has suggested that the Italian Wars books should probably best be used as a stand alone and not incorporated with others in comps.

All

Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.

Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.

Simon

Yup you are right responses sent wrong impression.
Again let's just wait and see as my bet is that there is no issue anyway.

S
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craig.w

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Re: Keil
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2019, 02:06:15 AM »
I think they should be allowed but it should count as a slur on one's character if one actually wins a tournament with them. :)

 :D I know who I'd put my money on with your Numidians vs Maximilian German or Italian States - like shooting fish in a barrell!!

badhabum

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Re: Keil
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2019, 04:53:00 PM »
As I already wrote, I thinbk it is an organisator's choice . I would ban them from a large medieval theme as if I organise a medieval theme, I would like to see charging knights be them Norman, French or Italian . But that is a choice .But italian wars can be a very late Medieval theme and allow all lists from 1400 to 1525 or something like that.