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Author Topic: shooting targets  (Read 147 times)

badhabum

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shooting targets
« on: February 03, 2019, 11:42:25 AM »
Shooters may not target bases contributing to frontal contact.

So to be 100 % sure

A 4 rank deep phalanx in combat : only the 3rd base may be targetted even from the rear as the 1st,2nd and 4th ranks contribute to frontal melee

A 2 rank deep long spear formation in combat: the second rank cannot be targeted as it contributes to melee even if the shooter is in the rear

Stranger bow : a 2 rank deep PA unit fighting infantry is similar to Long Spear as the unit needs bith ranks to have a + but if the same unit fights cavalry, as it only needs one rank to have a + the rear rank becomes a legal target  :-\

Romans in 2 ranks : the rear rank is always a legal target ..

So what is the intend of the rule ?

Only the frontal base in melee is a forbidden target and the others , even needed to have a +, are targets or not ?

Which has really strange effects


stuuk

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 11:50:04 AM »
It is more or less as you say (the pikes I think are ALL in combat)
And yes it has odd effects, and it is needlessly complex.
That is nevertheless how it works right now, unfortunately.


badhabum

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 12:41:35 PM »
3rd pike rank is not in combat

stuuk

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 12:51:44 PM »
The melee factor is '+1 if in 3+ ranks' with a minimum depth of 2 ranks.
So yes, all the ranks are fighting - three or more ranks.

How could it be otherwise? If the 4th rank is fighting the 3rd rank is of course fighting

nikgaukroger

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 01:32:31 PM »
A 4 rank deep phalanx in combat : only the 3rd base may be targetted even from the rear as the 1st,2nd and 4th ranks contribute to frontal melee

Don't be silly.

You can't be in 4 ranks without a 3rd rank so by definition the 3rd rank is contributing  8)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 04:20:08 PM »
Sorry . You can shoot at the 4th rank when in melee as the 4th rank is "useless" for having a +

nikgaukroger

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 05:08:42 PM »
For melee I think stuuk arguably has it:

The melee factor is '+1 if in 3+ ranks' with a minimum depth of 2 ranks.
So yes, all the ranks are fighting - three or more ranks.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 05:12:43 PM »
Simon's clarification was that any engaged base could not be shot at.

An engaged base is any base that helps contribute to a combat factor or affects an enemy combat factor in melee either directly or as an overlap.  A 2nd rank of (foot) Polearm is engaged in melee against any but Cv, Cm, Ch and El.

It does lead to some odd situations and is really only a game mechanism.

Revised:  Simon's clarification for MF1 moves indicates the 4th round of Pike is an engaged base, although I am not clear why this is the case.  Some clarity is required.

For example:
You could view a Roman unit in two ranks being the front rank representing files in combat and the second rank being reserves held further back.  But would this apply to barbarians?

So don't try to justify it by real life examples - just treat it as a game mechnanism and live with it.  Personally I think it would have been better to forbid shooting at any file in melee but Simon is the author and that was what he decided.  Live with it...

Richard
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:07:59 AM by lionheartrjc »

Onurbm

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2019, 07:27:02 PM »
bis, we just need clear sharp authors statement ... for same motive , avoid wasted arguing time in competitions   ;)
Bruno

badhabum

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2019, 07:31:48 PM »
So it is clear. Strange but clear .

nikgaukroger

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2019, 09:48:05 PM »
Just to keep things a bit muddy there is this in the claries:

Quote
UNENGAGED BASES FOR MF1 MOVES

An Unengaged base is any base that is not currently in a position to contribute to a fight by either fighting in the front rank, providing rear ranks to a front rank in order to claim a +, or doing these as a supporting file. So for exmaple, 2nd and 3rd ranks behind Devastating Charger - Melee Expert are unengaged in Melee Combat, but second to fourth ranks behind pikes are still engaged. Engaged bases added to glossary.

This is for a slightly different thing, but still melee related. IMO it'd be good if what is engaged/unengaged for shooting and MF1 moves were the same - simpler to remember.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 08:10:01 AM »
Just to keep things a bit muddy there is this in the claries:

Quote
UNENGAGED BASES FOR MF1 MOVES

An Unengaged base is any base that is not currently in a position to contribute to a fight by either fighting in the front rank, providing rear ranks to a front rank in order to claim a +, or doing these as a supporting file. So for exmaple, 2nd and 3rd ranks behind Devastating Charger - Melee Expert are unengaged in Melee Combat, but second to fourth ranks behind pikes are still engaged. Engaged bases added to glossary.

This is for a slightly different thing, but still melee related. IMO it'd be good if what is engaged/unengaged for shooting and MF1 moves were the same - simpler to remember.

Indeed, I have modfied my response above. as I am not clear why the fourth rank of pike is regarded as engaged, presumably because it can support at impact. 

Richard

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 01:03:15 PM »
I agree Nik the two would be best aligned and I will add it to the hit list.
I will take a better look rather than rush and tidy them up.

Take 4th rank of pike as engaged and not a possible target - that was my itent.  They are busy.
I will fix it to be so.

Si
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple

nikgaukroger

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2019, 01:05:17 PM »
Cheers  8)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: shooting targets
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2019, 07:54:14 PM »
If you say so, the 4th rank is engaged...but from all research, all ranks of a phalanx were not engaged . The rear ranks being a reserve and they went forward in the file to replace casualties, same as roman reserve except that the pikeman is already in a file, but too far away to do any good ( initially )

Yes I love pikes..and will use them again .