QuoteIf you feel the history compels us to make this change to chariots I would make a couple of suggestions to keep them at least within striking range of consideration for a competition list:

1)   Make as many of the capabilities optional as possible. If you are trying to design a list with chariots as a dedicated, fast moving shooting platform the last thing you want is compulsory melee expert and shoot/charge.

We will of course take a good luck at that to not overburden.  But bear in mind with similar troops you can probably find a list that has them in or out anyway.  So you can pick a "shoot" variant or a "combat enabled" one.

Quote2)   Have a look at the points. The 'new' chariots will be less of a problem if they are cheap enough. As mentioned earlier one thing I would consider is making Dev Charger free. It is, at best, a 'side-grade' anyway.

Definitely reviewing the points.  I essence they start as cavalry less something for the terrain issues.  Once we have the classifications were can fix some numbers.

Quote3)   There is no reason for the +1 for fighting mounted shooters who didn't charge to apply against chariots. I assume it represents mounted getting caught 'Bow in Hand' in a fight. The archer in a chariot can easily keep the enemy at a safe distance thanks to the chariot structure/horses and the protection of other crewmen (shieldbearers and the like). Changing this would have the added benefit of creating a point of difference between chariots and cavalry as well as giving them a little boost in effectiveness.

Something I had intended and forgotten so thanks for the reminder.

Quote4)   Make the shooting better. I am aware of no reason why Egyptian, Assyrian, Mitanni and a whole swathe of other Near Eastern chariots are skilled shooters but no Chinese one is (perhaps just lists written by different people?). If they are going to be shooting platforms make as many of them effective ones as possible.

Also being looked at.

QuoteI would probably prefer to keep Battle-chariot classification as it is but if you decide the new classification has to happen the above could help

Martin

Thanks for the input.  We plan on testing chariots out in and out of period before finalising.  Have to lock it down around end October.

Weren't some chariots, eg the English ones, used as unarmoured personnel carriers to cite a modern equivalence, that race up, deposit 1-3 light infantry each, to throw javelins at slower enemies, then chariots return and pick them up when withdrawing?

And weren't some of the effects of chariots psychological rather than actual physical damage? Bit like camels disordering unfamiliar horses, I receall reading Ceasar's comments on the sheer noise of hundreds of clanking chariots unsettled his troops.

Mark

Certainly was a psychological effect with all the noise and chaos.
In the way Elephants were.
Could build it in to KaB system but felt it was necessary complexity.


Ancient British was a skirmish platform for javelins as you say.
throw jabs and rebound.  One big advantage being ammo they could carry.

Si

Quote3)   There is no reason for the +1 for fighting mounted shooters who didn't charge to apply against chariots. I assume it represents mounted getting caught 'Bow in Hand' in a fight. The archer in a chariot can easily keep the enemy at a safe distance thanks to the chariot structure/horses and the protection of other crewmen (shieldbearers and the like). Changing this would have the added benefit of creating a point of difference between chariots and cavalry as well as giving them a little boost in effectiveness.

This is a bit of red herring as most of the chariots in question have Shoot&Charge so are not subject to it.

Si

Not really a 'red herring' as it would apply to chariots that have skirmished/evaded and when (because of charge activation sequence or some other issue) they haven't declared a charge.

Take it from me (having played them a lot) it does happen and will now happen more often as:

1) more chariots will be evading

2)  they will be even  weaker in a fight so will be even less keen to actually declare a charge

Martin

Yes but want it to count if caught when evading.

S

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 19, 2019, 08:45:49 AM
Yes but want it to count if caught when evading.

S

Perhaps Chariots (and/or all units with shoot and charge) should be able to shoot while receiving a charge without penalty?

Martin

Quote from: martymagnificent on August 19, 2019, 12:19:35 PM

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 19, 2019, 08:45:49 AM
Yes but want it to count if caught when evading.

S

Perhaps Chariots (and/or all units with shoot and charge) should be able to shoot while receiving a charge without penalty?

Martin

It is already set up so they can cards permitting.  They just declare a charge back.  Get to shoot immediately.

why not stopping the changes on the chariots?

the balance on the table if not historical is not too bad on the table compared to the ideas we have on it and what we want to have in MEG
why changing for changing?

PUNCH " tweaking or twearking that is the question?"

People fear all those changes

So people or just one or two?
Its hard to judge but am open to the counsel from players and organisers.
It is after all the whole point of posting them.

We can put them out soon and you can all try them and then see if you prefer them or not.
The decision though is now or not for a long time as doing a major print.
Maybe start a FB poll on it or one in here - with my full blessing.

S

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 21, 2019, 12:25:46 PM
Maybe start a FB poll on it or one in here - with my full blessing.

I think reasoned posts are more useful than polls.

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 21, 2019, 12:25:46 PM
So people or just one or two?
Its hard to judge but am open to the counsel from players and organisers.
It is after all the whole point of posting them.

We can put them out soon and you can all try them and then see if you prefer them or not.
The decision though is now or not for a long time as doing a major print.
Maybe start a FB poll on it or one in here - with my full blessing.

S

At this point, we should go ahead and make the necessary changes. But after that stop discussion the armies, the rules ...just play the GAME as it is a GAME no less, no more . This is not a reenactment . It must be fun and simple .

Would like to see the changes (including points) to give it a go.

Hard to see how it will be a good thing though. A quick perusal of MeG comp results would suggest chariots are already a troop type that is unpopular/struggling, the 'one or two' people raising concerns could well be a large proportion of those active on the forum who have much experience playing BattleChariots in open competition. My regular opponent, Paul Rattray, was quite despondent about the prospects of battlechariots after running a chariot based Assyrian list at Wintercon.

I actually don't mind a process of constant change but think we should be careful about downgrading a troop type that is already a challenge to make work. If the History demands a change be made steps need to be taken to make sure they still work in the game.

Martin

I think you are right on the principle and we want to avoid downgrading anything that will affect players badly.
But give them a try.  I am going to as well.
The fact that there are very few such armies used is actually one of the points.
For me the armies will play better this way, but different.
Could Paul share his list with me and I will give the new version a go.

Si