my army is all about the handgunners

which i still do not have

arghh

Aah well that makes me Old Ming because I've had the army for years! Actually my cunning plan is just to get every gimmick on the table I can - I may not win much but I will have fun!

So the only question left (I think) is can Artillery and handgunners in the same file both fire (it specifies bow and crossbow)?

my original assumption was yes, but the more i read the notes the more messy it gets...

I may have to rearrange some of my units

Logically speaking if bow and crossbow can shoot from behind Art I don't see why Handgunners can't - but I'm not sure that logic would survive an umpire's ruling!

I think logic founders upon the harsh realities of the list of ming ness

the original intention was the attached artillery would just be a 'marker' rather than a 'base' so that all bases in the TuG would function as they would do normally. Think of the regimental gun in FoG:R ... So that is RAI if not RAW

whether that has been lost in translation along the way remains to be see.

I am suggesting the note should now read
"SPECIAL RULE - LIGHT GUNS. Instead of being deployed separately, light guns may be attached to a drilled infantry TuG. In the army builder, add or replace with "Experienced-Light Artillery" shooting to the normal characteristics of one base of the TuG, and use a light gun base for this.  Note that this base is still an infantry base not an artillery base. The TuG moves at BWg speeds (but may double move) and with any move the TuG may abandon the light guns, in which case replace the artillery base with a normal base and revert to infantry speeds for movement thereafter. Both artillery and bow, handgun or crossbow can shoot - the artillery shoots as "unskilled". The rule for charging guns (KaB test) will apply if this base is charged. This special rule should be explained to opponents as soon as the first TuG of this type is deployed."

Why downgrade the artillery now? I assumed the original reason for Experienced was that there were light guns all along the units frontage (which is historical I believe) and that rather than give a gun per base you represented this with one experienced gun. Was that the original intention -and has it changed?

Actually I'm even more confused - are you saying to take an artillery base? So a unit of six would become a unit of seven bases? (eight if I also add an anticavalry squad)

OK read it again and I don't think you mean to take an extra base - just give an infantry base a Light Artillery shooting capability (as it was all along in the list). Still leaves the question of why change the artillery grade now.

You put them into the army builder as experienced so it adds an appropriate points cost.  They shoot as Unskilled otherwise they would be too effective  (bear in mind you are getting the potential benefits of extra slows and the KAB test if the base is charged).   It is an optional feature, if you don't like it you don't have to use them...

An average drilled loose experienced crossbowmen is 92 points.   If you upgrade them with a light gun they become 125 points.  For the 33 pts it seems quite a good bonus... (The cost is 40 pts if you upgrade an archer, 50 points if you upgrade a handgunner). 

Obviously the drawback is that the infantry are slowed to 2 BW in open and 1 BW in rough and would have to drop the light guns to enter difficult going.

I am always concerned about making special rules too effective so that they become a must have.

Richard

QuoteThey shoot as Unskilled otherwise they would be too effective  (bear in mind you are getting the potential benefits of extra slows and the KAB test if the base is charged).

Lots of armies can have experienced artillery. Why is it 'too effective' for the Ming? I've used artillery in a few armies, doesn't seem that awesome.

Martin

Quote from: martymagnificent on April 01, 2019, 09:07:19 PM

QuoteThey shoot as Unskilled otherwise they would be too effective  (bear in mind you are getting the potential benefits of extra slows and the KAB test if the base is charged).

Lots of armies can have experienced artillery. Why is it 'too effective' for the Ming? I've used artillery in a few armies, doesn't seem that awesome.

Martin

Because it is additional shooting.

Richard

The MeG Meister has come up with a better solution

"SPECIAL RULE - LIGHT GUNS. Instead of being deployed separately, light guns may be attached to any drilled infantry TuG. In the army builder, insert "Experienced-Light Artillery" shooting in the firing section of one shooting base of the TuG, and use a light gun base for this.  Note that this base is still an infantry base not an artillery base. The TuG moves at BWg speeds (but may double move) and with any move the TuG may abandon the light guns, in which case replace the artillery base with a normal infantry base that matches the rest of the TuG, and revert to infantry speeds for movement thereafter. Note that a file may only fire once and the file with the artillery must choose whether to fire the artillery or to fire any Bow, Crossbow or Firearm in that file instead.  The rule for charging guns (KaB test) will apply if the base with light guns is charged – so it must be in the front rank to get this benefit. This special rule should be explained to opponents as soon as the first TuG of this type is deployed."

So basically you can replace a handgunner, archer or crossbowmen with a light gun.  You can then choose to shoot the file as Artillery instead.

Thanks! This makes a lot of sense. Though my cunning plan is looking even less cunning now!

I think what these guns looked like historically was a lot of one and two man weapons, sometimes not that much bigger than handguns, scattered across the frontage of the unit. So each one would be taking up the space that could be occupied by  bowmen etc - so you shouldn't be getting an extra firing dice just changing the firing type.