the new flank charge

badhabum · November 02, 2019, 11:42:50 AM

For the peace of mind of referee's, could you add a complete diagram for the new flank charge rule .

Yes there are already discussions on how to play it . The main problem being the 1 MU X 1 MU space...so why if I am behind the target at 1/2 MU would it not be a flank or rear charge

Simon Meg-Meister · November 02, 2019, 02:34:05 PM

Already done. Here it is as will help to explain.
Very simple. Only purpose is to stop the cheesy flank charge ...

Is it clear enough. Adding a fair few diagrams to the rules.

S

[attachment deleted by admin]

Jilu · November 05, 2019, 05:03:48 AM

there is a spelling mistake in the diagram

also why can "therefore 2" not hit the Gallics in the flank and fight on the flank as the front edge is entirely behind the Gallic flank and the unit is more then 1 MU away?

also
the green unit can be skirmishers?

Simon Meg-Meister · November 05, 2019, 08:10:18 AM

Hi Jilu

Rather ill at present so may not be at my best ... but bored silly so answering anyway

Dark green would have to be non-skirmishers TuG.
In main text already, but I'll add the precision to the finalised diagram thank you
All being done one next 2 weeks.

Therefore 2 says it could physically do so, but it won't get flank charge benefits due to the existence of the dark green troops.
The conditions are those under which you get to claim a flank charge bonus. Not worth doing therefore so I doubt anyone will ever bother as suicide.

Other option is perhaps to ban the contact altogether. But I'm a little cautious of that as it may create situations where it obstructs contact at all.
For instance, what if troops charging the dark green have to contact the flank of the light green to hit them ....

Si

PS whole thing is actually to stop the one perverse piece of cheese I don't like which is people charging flanks from just behind the line when there are other friends very near. I don't have an issue if there is some space to do so as everything in reality is simultaneous, so being past the line is far enough for me. But there is a gamey engineered version that can get +4s that are not so sensible that one or two pros in the Uk have spotted.

Simon Meg-Meister · November 05, 2019, 01:55:22 PM

Ok in the interests of clarity, here is a fuller version so you can see what you think.

1) First there have I think been some mistakes in understanding of the rules as regards how you can protect flanks. It has been this way since day 1, but I think a number of people have missed it, so adding a diagram. I noticed this umpiring a few times.

2) The new charge rule is the simplest added condition I could find to get rid of some rather cheesy and abusive charges. Here it is a bit more refined. Actually very simple.

3) you cannot ban contact on a flank edge because of this situation, or the main charge would be blocked from making contact. This is why its allowed but will be a frontal fight.

Si

AntiokosIII · November 05, 2019, 10:00:55 PM

After looking at this, I think I now understand how this works for the first time. Huzzah! I shall tell all my friends! My non-Wargaming friends might be a bit confused.

Jilu · November 06, 2019, 05:03:25 AM

muuuuch better

Simon Meg-Meister · November 06, 2019, 10:08:37 AM

Good

We aim to please.
Doing more diagrams in the new book space permitting as they do speak 1000 words.
Cheese eradicated by KISS means.

S

Rino · November 06, 2019, 10:58:31 AM

On the first diagram it is mentioned « a common mistake » mentioning that the player with 2 base in contact choose which one he fight with.
I have a few questions (assuming the flanker is over the 1bw distance as per new rules)

1/ the charger in blue has a file touching the Gallic on the flank and the unit protecting the flank.
Blue player could therefore chose to fight the Gallic on flank, right?

2/ if I am in situation
__AAAA
11112222
With A Base in contact with base 1 and base 2.
Player with number can choose which base fight A.
But player with A can choose if he fights 1 or 2 or is he forced to fight the one player with numbers selected?

Thx for confirming as I start doubting myself now.

Cheers

rayfredjohn · November 06, 2019, 01:06:55 PM

Simon, it has been consistently ruled at UK tournaments that the ACTIVE player choses the file to fight. Therefore in your example above there would be no flank protection if the Blue Player was the active player.

If this is not the case can you please make sure UK umpires are aware of this.

Thanks

Ray
UK Tournament Ambassador

Simon Meg-Meister · November 06, 2019, 02:41:10 PM

Interesting. Diagrams really do paint a 1000 words...

Maybe this is why there have been so many funny flank charges in the UK without me knowing which wouldn't be the case had I been umpiring personally.

I certainly ruled it as above in all games I umpired - including at Skulls last year.

So if blue is active and has first choice then
option a) they choose the blue file on the left to fight - as is their right.
Then page 83 6.1 takes over.
Opponent choose the fontal one obviously.

option b) the blue player choose the file on the right.
Then page 83 6.1 takes over.
Opponent choose the fontal one to the right.
Thereby leaving the one on the left free to fight the other one.

Maybe the rules as deliberately drafted didn't have the cheesy loophole after all?

. Anyway sorted now I assume.
Si

Simon Meg-Meister · November 06, 2019, 02:43:47 PM

Quote from: Rino on November 06, 2019, 10:58:31 AM
On the first diagram it is mentioned « a common mistake » mentioning that the player with 2 base in contact choose which one he fight with.
I have a few questions (assuming the flanker is over the 1bw distance as per new rules)

1/ the charger in blue has a file touching the Gallic on the flank and the unit protecting the flank.
Blue player could therefore chose to fight the Gallic on flank, right?

2/ if I am in situation
__AAAA
11112222
With A Base in contact with base 1 and base 2.
Player with number can choose which base fight A.
But player with A can choose if he fights 1 or 2 or is he forced to fight the one player with numbers selected?

Thx for confirming as I start doubting myself now.

Cheers

As has always been ...
Page 83 6.1. A file only fights ones with its front edge to front or rear. so if two files are in contact with it then the player with the 2 files chooses which on to fight with.

You being active lets you choose which file you fight with. The opponent get to choose which one fights back if there are two - otherwise the above has no purpose.

Rino · November 06, 2019, 02:48:33 PM

Thanks Simon, then as part of question 1 nothing refrain the blue player to fight against the Gallic troops as flank attacking as long as the 1 BW rule is respected, right?

Simon Meg-Meister · November 06, 2019, 06:10:37 PM

No you can't intuit scenario.
You only get to pick he file you want to fight with.
Then the opponent gets to pick which of the two files it is in contact with fights back.

Si

Rino · November 06, 2019, 07:46:06 PM

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on November 06, 2019, 06:10:37 PM
No you can't intuit scenario.
You only get to pick he file you want to fight with.
Then the opponent gets to pick which of the two files it is in contact with fights back.

Si

Thx for the clarification. I get it now.
There is a real advantage in having 2 bases contacting one then.

I believe having it put in black and white would be helpful as it is not intuitive.