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Author Topic: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points  (Read 2002 times)

AntiokosIII

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 07:55:51 PM »
As a notorious lover of shooty cav armies, I am delighted by these changes.
Miniature Wargaming is the only completely honorable form of warfare ever invented by man.

LeslieIan

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 09:05:09 PM »
Japanese
These lists will be adjusted for evolution from single bamboo to triple Yumi
1. PBw to cut in later than currently
2. Heian period to be average-Bw, Kamakura Skilled-bow, Skilled-Pbw thereafter

Agree with this, apart from it's not the bamboo that changes wood core from single piece of wood,  to wood and bamboo in blocks/layers, this happened c1300. so early Kamakura list would have Bw, and Later Pbw, in the middle a mix, but I understand this may be hard to do.

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 09:07:59 PM »
Kamakura list goes to 1334 CE - so if we're talking c. 1300 CE that isn't so far off.
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martymagnificent

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM »
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.

Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?

Martin

Except they were mainly mobile shooting platforms and the heavier ones become good at that to compensate.  So soften up and then charge. In ise I think this will be a big better.  Plus controllable.

They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.

Martin

LeslieIan

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2019, 11:11:15 PM »
Kamakura list goes to 1334 CE - so if we're talking c. 1300 CE that isn't so far off.

So Kamakura should be Skilled Be, not Skilled Pbw, since the change in Yumi design was 1300-1400CE

aphilla

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 01:28:38 AM »
Single base additions to TuGs revised
These do not work in practice so we are removing them and finding another way
1. English Longbows will be given a ME option to represent a high % of MAA intermingled.
2. Chinese types revert to simply two different ranks of troops.

Nikeforian menavltoi are another FWIW.

Might be useful if people could flag lists with similar single base additions. Think we have them all, but with so many lists ...

Viking berserkers?

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 06:28:11 AM »
Kamakura list goes to 1334 CE - so if we're talking c. 1300 CE that isn't so far off.

So Kamakura should be Skilled Be, not Skilled Pbw, since the change in Yumi design was 1300-1400CE

Which is what Si is suggesting I believe.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 06:32:31 AM »
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.

Martin

More historical, yes - which is better for a game based in history. Means that they will have to be used differently, as speedy mobile shooters primarily, combat troops a more secondary role.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

martymagnificent

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 07:00:39 AM »
Perhaps, but can they afford to take such a big hit from a balance POV? Our tabletops aren't exactly clogged with chariot armies as it is. I also dislike been told a change is making something better when it is pretty clearly not. Just say "hey chariot players, assume the position....' :o

Martin

Robin

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 07:28:45 AM »
Happy with most changes.
Legionnaires still to expensive IMO. Why not allow them to be close order. Option to buy Flex. Auxlia would have done the rough donkey work.

Why no unprotected in charge combat phase ?

Not particularly happy re no uneven ground (cavalry friendly) as just spent 160 on new terrain on sunday at Britcon.

Army lists. Still a bit surprised at lack of compulsory troop types, which in my opinion allows players to make super armies out of armies that historically did little.

mad lemmey

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 08:23:14 AM »
Tibetan exorcist is the other single stand oddity
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nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 08:35:05 AM »
We can leave that one in for the masochistic its such a bad option  :o ;D
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 08:55:01 AM »
Happy with most changes.
Legionnaires still to expensive IMO. Why not allow them to be close order. Option to buy Flex. Auxlia would have done the rough donkey work.

Cost cropped up in some of our discussions and Close instead of Flexible doesn't save enough points to really affect army composition as the difference is very small. IMO you can currently get perfectly viable Roman armies onto the table.

Auxilia didn't do the terrain donkey work - a trawl through Tacitus shows the legionarii doing their share, and in one battle they go fight in the woods whilst the auxilia hold the open ground IIRC.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

mad lemmey

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 09:01:28 AM »
Main issue with legionarii is shield cover 'tax'. ;)
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nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 09:17:13 AM »
Again cheap. For Average its 5 pts a base (2020) as is the difference between Close and Flexible.

Now in a way legionarii are hit twice by small additions, but even both together doesn't add up to a massive amount. When I looked at my Roman lists it'd get me an extra basic unit, however, I'd want to keep Flexible as I've found that to be useful so losing Shield Cover wouldn't really give much that'd be useful for my lists (YMMV and it may be useful depending on how you do your Romans).

FWIW I have found Shield Cover to be useful in a few games, and now that we know you can prompt through it I suspect it is more useful.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."