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Author Topic: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points  (Read 2003 times)

Simon Meg-Meister

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Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« on: August 12, 2019, 04:58:38 PM »
READ THE OVERALL ONE ON THE 2020 COMPENDIUM BEFORE THIS POST
List changes will be limited to the following. 

Chariots
Re-defined to be more historical and to make them more viable as shooting plaforms.  I believe this will improve these armies character in period and viability in open play.
1. Battle Chariot removed as we now believe there is really no such thing.  All becoming just "Chariots".  They can therefore evade as cavalry (if allowed to by other rules - so if hey have missile weapons and no Scythed Chariots cannot evade!), flank march and break off. And all will move 5BW.
2. Better chariots simply have increasing additions in weapons and characteristics, so the heaviest ones become Chariot, Superior, Arm Hrs/Prot, SSp, Exp-Bw, Devastating Charger, Melee Expert.  The larger 4 horse ones just aloow larger cews and greater weaponry.  The 3 and 4 horse chariots will work better in and out of period.

Single base additions to TuGs revised
These do not work in practice so we are removing them and finding another way
1. English Longbows will be given a ME option to represent a high % of MAA intermingled.
2. Chinese types revert to simply two different ranks of troops.

Feigned Flight
1. We will be adding this to a short subset of armies that used it.

Japanese
These lists will be adjusted for evolution from single bamboo to triple Yumi
1. PBw to cut in later than currently
2. Heian period to be average-Bw, Kamakura Skilled-bow, Skilled-Pbw thereafter

Individual List Changes
There is a short list of minor improvements to other lists that are not often seen to make them a bit more viable.

Nothing else is planned so your armies should be just as good as they are today - or better.

Points changes have a decrease for bows and otherwise minor internal tweaking for balance and consistency.  Every army i have used in 2019 is between 9750 and 10100.  So expect minor adjustments and nothing more.  If you use a big bow army you will probably get a few more of them in 2020, which combined with Prompting through Fire being a bit more difficult should make a big bow army a bit more viable.  But it will not be much - my Skythians gained 4 bases in total.  Its all quite mild adjustment.

S
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:32:10 AM by Simon Meg-Meister »
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple

Raiderd

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 07:25:50 PM »
Love the changes to chariots  AWESOME       

Rino

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 10:08:30 PM »
Nice hearing what changes are in the pipe.
Just it is a pity we didnít took advantage of britcon with players from all around to exchange a bit onto it.

Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mÍlťe expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?

For the biblical well we will have to check the impact of the change on battle chariots (it got some natural factors on impact and melee)
The Sumerians will get some race 4 wheels chariots with donkeys running at 5 BW?

So for 2020 we have
- rules update
- budget update (since there are change on bow and battle chariots being erased)
- change on the army lists.

This makes a lot.

Letís face it :We better market it carefully if we donít want to loose a significant number of players that are tired of the changes...


Robin

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 10:21:46 PM »
Feigned Flight. Norman's Please.

Rino

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 10:36:35 PM »
Feigned Flight. Norman's Please.

If there are no uneven feign flight will be the last option against the infantry...

martymagnificent

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 10:37:25 PM »
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.

Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?

Martin

lionheartrjc

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 07:22:37 AM »
For the biblical well we will have to check the impact of the change on battle chariots (it got some natural factors on impact and melee)
The Sumerians will get some race 4 wheels chariots with donkeys running at 5 BW?


The plan is for early Battle Carts to be Close order chariots (they will move at 4BW in open, same as other Close Cv/Cm) - so no they won't race around like Egyptian New Kingdom chariots.

Richard

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2019, 07:24:27 AM »
Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mÍlťe expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?

The implementation is yet to be decided - that will come when Richard goes through the lists, there are options to consider.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 07:43:17 AM »
Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mÍlťe expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?

The implementation is yet to be decided - that will come when Richard goes through the lists, there are options to consider.

We are considering treating Longbowmen reinforced by men-at-arms as 1/2 melee expert (essentially giving a front rank) and making the TuGs 6's or 8's.  This stops enemy shooters picking on the one men-at-arms base in a TuG of 7.  It also avoids the issue of a close order base mixed in with Longbowmen. 

The concern is the ability to distinguish the M/E bases, but I don't believe that is insurmountable.  I used an Eastern Seljuk Turk army and distinguished both the allied/non-allied and skilled/experienced shooters by putting small coloured labels on the bottom of (underneath) the bases. 

Richard
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:44:49 AM by lionheartrjc »

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 08:03:16 AM »
Single base additions to TuGs revised
These do not work in practice so we are removing them and finding another way
1. English Longbows will be given a ME option to represent a high % of MAA intermingled.
2. Chinese types revert to simply two different ranks of troops.

Nikeforian menavltoi are another FWIW.

Might be useful if people could flag lists with similar single base additions. Think we have them all, but with so many lists ...
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 07:00:25 PM »
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.

Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?

Martin

Except they were mainly mobile shooting platforms and the heavier ones become good at that to compensate.  So soften up and then charge. In ise I think this will be a big better.  Plus controllable.
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Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 07:05:15 PM »
Nice hearing what changes are in the pipe.
Just it is a pity we didnít took advantage of britcon with players from all around to exchange a bit onto it.

Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mÍlťe expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?

For the biblical well we will have to check the impact of the change on battle chariots (it got some natural factors on impact and melee)
The Sumerians will get some race 4 wheels chariots with donkeys running at 5 BW?

So for 2020 we have
- rules update
- budget update (since there are change on bow and battle chariots being erased)
- change on the army lists.

This makes a lot.

Letís face it :We better market it carefully if we donít want to loose a significant number of players that are tired of the changes...

Interesting you think its a lot.  The only thing that changes materially is chariots.  Seems very little change to me. 

However if you call it: rules update, budget update, change to army lists you will make it sound like a lot because it doesn't qualify how much change.  So indeed it is a lot in how you say it. It will be important for all of you as players to emphasise that it is small changes only and not to make it seem radical when it isn't.  So really its a matter of not marketing it badly.

So if you find any rumours of big changes be sure to squash them and alert me.  We do need to be careful not to let any such rumours starts.  And the rules are then fixed for 5+ years in a solid book.

S


« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:07:36 PM by Simon Meg-Meister »
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DracoStandard

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2019, 07:15:26 PM »
HYW Longbow as melee expert does make them a bit damn good (ie better than vikings in melee).  If we are happy with this...just make them all melee expert

Half and half makes them more complicated than the extra base of 2HC (keeping track of who is who can be a bit of a 'mare)

other similars

NKE axemen
lutat macemen

IanN

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 07:39:27 PM »
Slight reduction in cost for Skilled shooter would be good - very costly at present and not always cost effect. If using Skilled need more than one unit, which severely reduces TUGs. Feels that those horsey-shooty armies that rely/had quantity of Skilled often too small to really get balanced game.  Not much ... but a little more would be good ......

nikgaukroger

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Re: Minimal changes to 2020 lists + Points
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 07:49:00 PM »
Slight reduction in cost for Skilled shooter would be good - very costly at present and not always cost effect. If using Skilled need more than one unit, which severely reduces TUGs. Feels that those horsey-shooty armies that rely/had quantity of Skilled often too small to really get balanced game.  Not much ... but a little more would be good ......

I'd point out that its really isn't difficult to get more than 1 unit of skilled currently. However, ...

The cost of bows is coming down, therefore, Shooty cavalry armies have some extra points to spend in 2020.

The points decrease for bows automatically brings the cost of skilled shooter down as it is a multiplier.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."