First Crusade Crusader Lords downgrading rear rank

[Robin]

Hi Richard
I have sent my Skulls list to Hunter. He has sent you a query.
Crusader lords and knights: It clearly states (Regrade seargents in rear rank of Crusader Lords) ANY

Apparantly you have said i can only do so with 8 ? I dont understand why this is.

Below you can have up to 8 Average Poorer knights, It does not say you can or have to use these in the rear rank. To me it reads completly seperatly.

Regards
Robin

[nikgaukroger]

I concur with Robin.

We have the line that says "Regrade sergeants in rear rank of Crusader lords UG" and the note that says "A TuG with Crusader knights may have half the TuG as sergeants.".

Looks clear to me that as written the Superior Lords & Knights TUGs can have half their bases with no Charging Lancer. Otherwise the regrade line would appear redundant.

Perhaps there has been some confusion with another list when answering a query?

[marshalney2000]

I think there could be ambiguity but I am also struck by the line in the notes that says poorer knights and sergeants CAN be in a TUG of their own which would suggest that the option also exists for them to be mixed in with the superior knights. It could then be read that the next line of the army list which allows them to be upgraded to superior imposes the eight base maximum.

[marshalney2000]

If this is not the case then there is no option to mix the troop type defined as poorer knights or sergeants to be mixed in with the superior knights as no proportions etc are given. I presumably could chose my own proportions and have three superior knights and one average sergeant. Nothing to stop me according to the notes.

[nikgaukroger]

Its a good point, there does appear to be a bit of a glitch here

Personally I'd say that given the performance of the 1st Crusade the Superior sergeants 2nd rank option makes sense.

In fact I'd say the Poorer knights line is not needed and would be covered by the universal allowed downgrade anyway.

So I'd remove the latter and the note referring to them.

[Robin]

Thank you for the response
So does this mean that I can downgrade any of the Crusader Lords ?

[marshalney2000]

Robin, I do not think it is that clear. My gut feeling is, as written, the two lines are intended to be read together and the note I referred to would tend to support this. Of course Nik May be right, indeed he usually is, but not sure Richard will want to make changes to army lists on an individual basis. More likely to add to amendments for review in 2020.
I confess more than a vested interest as I am currently building a similar army but can fully see how Hunter made the call he did.

[marshalney2000]

One other point. If there are lots of sergeants waiting around who could be upgraded then why is maximum for them in separate units only eight and not sixteen or exactly half the number of superior knights allowed?

[marshalney2000]

This also impacts on lots of other Crusader armies too such as Outremer States, Later Crusader etc where maximum sergeants can be as low as four.

[Robin]

Well to be honest not happy as just wasted a day on the list plus sorting figures, re basing etc. It appears fairly clear to me and others. Any mean's any. If not then then for every bodies sake the lists need to be clearer. If all the Crusader lists are incorrect then !!!!!!!!!!

Would appreciate the benefit of the doubt but if not then I will just have to come up with another list.

Thanks for your help

[Hunter]

Robin, I do not think it is that clear. My gut feeling is, as written, the two lines are intended to be read together and the note I referred to would tend to support this. Of course Nik May be right, indeed he usually is, but not sure Richard will want to make changes to army lists on an individual basis. More likely to add to amendments for review in 2020.
I confess more than a vested interest as I am currently building a similar army but can fully see how Hunter made the call he did.

To be fair I read it as a maximum of 8 sergeants available to be upgraded but the question I asked Richard was simply if up to 1/2 the crusaders could downgraded or a maximum of 8.   The ruling is a maximum of 8.

HH

[Hunter]

Well to be honest not happy as just wasted a day on the list plus sorting figures, re basing etc. It appears fairly clear to me and others. Any mean's any. If not then then for every bodies sake the lists need to be clearer. If all the Crusader lists are incorrect then !!!!!!!!!!

Would appreciate the benefit of the doubt but if not then I will just have to come up with another list.

Thanks for your help

Our posts crossed Robin.  I am so sorry that this has happened but the ruling is clear.   Take a few days to devise another killer army and get back to me.
Sorry again.
HH

[marshalney2000]

There are a few lines I would like to ignore in my army list too if that is all right.

[nikgaukroger]

Whatever the arguments on this at this time I am confident that it will lead to tweaks in wording by RJC at some stage to ensure clarity.

[marshalney2000]

Totally happy with reviews of all lists at the right time and the right place especially when it impacts on other similar lists.
If you change lists before a major tournament then I feel it is only right that all players should have the right to change their armies to something else if impacted by the changes to that list. Now that is nebulous but indeed I might feel that a First Crusade Army is now for me while the 8 bases restriction in the previous form was a deal breaker for me.