Displacing sugs

[Hunter]

Yes.
HH

[badhabum]

YES ( Simon wrote it so ...no discussion - how I hate it )

[craig.w]

Sorry, I think I understand your confusion.

I don't refer to interpenetrations at all.  Page 68 is referring to 9.3 G - Displacing Friendly SuGs.  There is no mention of KaB tests  on page 68.

Page 65, 9.3 D 1.1.2 makes it very clear that a TuG can displace a friendly SuG and move through it.
Page 66, 9.3 D 2 does imply  that if you pass through a friendly mounted SuG with a TuG of cavalry then it would cause a KaB test.  9.3 D 3 (page 66 again) however does not cover who should get a KaB test.

KaB tests are mentioned on page 66 (9.3 D.3 in relation to passing through friends.  This however is referring to Run Aways, Skirmishes, Routs or Forced Charges.  I have always found it odd that KaB tests are included here as none of these occurs during the movement phase (which is what 9.3 is all about). 

So I think you do have a valid point - does a mounted SuG displaced and passed through by a TuG cause a KaB test and if so on whom?    It is unfortunate that the examples in the rules do not cover this situation.  A query for Simon... 

p.s. The reason I haven't spotted this before is that I am usually very careful to avoid getting my mounted SuGs trapped in front of TuGs.




As far as I can see, the rules are very clear.

I don't think this is clear.

"Page 65, 9.3 D 1.1.2 makes it very clear that a TuG can displace a friendly SuG and move through it."

Two lines before this it says "If allowed as a prompted action:" The only moves "allowed" are under 2.1-3 on p.66. Foot SUGs, artillery and special rules.

Where does it say it is allowed to pass through mounted SUGs? The reference to displacing and passing through a friendly SUG in D 1.1.2 refers to "allowed" passing through moves, which would seem to be foot SUGs only.

[badhabum]

Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .

So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests

[Jilu]

sometimes it is not possible to move the sug prior to a charge or due to lack of space

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .

So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests

Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere.

[craig.w]

Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .

So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests

Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere.

Doesn't this contradict earlier when you said that mounted SUGs can pass through mounted TUGs in the movement phase, when the only moves allowed in the rules are foot SUGs, artillery and special cases (as per 2 on p. 66), which don't cause KABs, and in 3 which outlines the cases where KABs apply?

[badhabum]

Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .

So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests

Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere.

Well .... due to my line of work I learned that, for exemple, it is not forbidden to murder someone, but that if you murder someone, there is a penalty... but it is not forbidden :-)

[Onurbm]

bahdabum's right . Some have difficulties understanding that "movement phase" means "movement phase" and not "any time" .
especialy not in any oher occurence the TUG / SUG happens to change location.

Not sure how ths may be expressed to reduce occurence of issues... May I suggest to emphasis "Movement Phase only" bold and underline ...but i stll asume we will have to kick and shake some anyway. 

this a mindset issue inherited from other games may be not a thesaurus or words issue.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .

So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests

Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere.

Doesn't this contradict earlier when you said that mounted SUGs can pass through mounted TUGs in the movement phase, when the only moves allowed in the rules are foot SUGs, artillery and special cases (as per 2 on p. 66), which don't cause KABs, and in 3 which outlines the cases where KABs apply?

It would but I don't recall saying that.  Rules only a,llow things through foot SuGs and Artillery full stop.
Everything else is outcome moves with KaB tests.

S

[craig.w]

Ok, I'm confused then, it seemed like you were agreeing with Richard before. The initial query was about a TUG displacing a SUG backwards in the movement phase i.e. the TUG would in effect pass through the SUG. It then expanded into a question whether a mounted SUG could be displaced and if so whether there was a KAB test.

Only foot SUGs can be displaced backwards - is this correct?

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Ok, I'm confused then, it seemed like you were agreeing with Richard before. The initial query was about a TUG displacing a SUG backwards in the movement phase i.e. the TUG would in effect pass through the SUG. It then expanded into a question whether a mounted SUG could be displaced and if so whether there was a KAB test.

Only foot SUGs can be displaced backwards - is this correct?

Yes these streams do branch off at times. 
So:

a) A TuG may pass through a SuG un the movemeent phase and displace the SuG to make room - backwards is fine.  If there is no room to displace the SuG then the interpenetration and displacement cannot happen.
b) Only foot SuGs can be displaced backward as the TuG moves to its new position and then displaces the SuG. As it cannot interpenetrate anything but a foot SuG it can't get to the position it wants to get to.

S

[Rino]

Heavy artillerie = foot sug, right?

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Yes they are.
Note to self to make it Foot SuGs except Hvy Artillery in 2020.

S

[stuuk]

Re-read this just to be sure. The eventual outcome is totally different to on the first page of this thread when we thought mounted SUGs could be moved backwards.

Also, the outcome here doesn't appear to be recorded in the current clarifications file.


Very frustrating to read, discuss, re-read etc. to find that conclusions are overturned and clarifications are not recorded :/