Shooting by countercharging and intercepting UGs

[AlecJH]

I would like a bit of clarification please on whether UGs which have the Shoot and charge characteristic (&/or UGs armed with missile weapons generally) are able to shoot at chargers in sub-phase 2.5 if they have countercharged or intercepted in sub-phase 2.4?

Section 5.J point 3 and Characteristics section Appendix 1.L Shoot and Charge point 4. both state that Shoot & charge cannot be used with a counter-charge or intercept due to hurried nature etc. But is that referring to prohibiting the UG from shooting when the countercharge/intercept itself is declared, such as would normally take place when a charge is declared by an UG with Shoot & charge, or additionally to later in the phase when shooting at enemy UGs that have declared charges, or both?

Point 6 of Appendix 1.L states that files of charge-only shooters only shoot when standing to receive a charge or charging, so perhaps are treated differently to other UGs with missile weapons (with Shoot & charge or otherwise) that countercharge or intercept but there doesn't appear to be a similar restriction with the Shoot and charge characteristic.

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.

[lionheartrjc]

Troops that countercharge or intercept may not shoot at 2.4 or 2.5.

Richard

[LawrenceG]

Troops that countercharge or intercept may not shoot at 2.4 or 2.5.

Richard

Where does it say that in the rules? It's not in 5.M or 7.B.

[lionheartrjc]

There is no provision for shooting in SP 2.4 in the turn sequence (PDF page 24).
Shoot & Charge cannot be used with a countercharge or intercept (PDF page 125).
Charge only shooters only shoot when standing to receive a charge or charging (PDF page 125), so cannot shoot when countercharging or intercepting.

Sorry, my reply was referring to troops with shoot & charge/charge only which I believed the question was asking - not for all troops.

[LawrenceG]

OK, so missile focussed troops can shoot at chargers after they have countercharged or intercepted. I had always assumed they couldn't.

Charge only shooters that pursued in the previous turn can't shoot at chargers because (as has now been clarified) they are not standing to receive. However, if they declare a charge of their own, they can use shoot-and-charge if in range.

Is that correct?

[lionheartrjc]

OK, so missile focussed troops can shoot at chargers after they have countercharged or intercepted. I had always assumed they couldn't.

Charge only shooters that pursued in the previous turn can't shoot at chargers because (as has now been clarified) they are not standing to receive. However, if they declare a charge of their own, they can use shoot-and-charge if in range.

Is that correct?

Lawrence, you are stating things that I never said could happen.  I was being cautious with my responses and only answering the specific questions that were asked.

Troops cannot shoot after they have countercharged or intercepted in the same way that chargers cannot shoot in the Shooting Phase.  The rules could be more explicit about this.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

OK, so missile focussed troops can shoot at chargers after they have countercharged or intercepted. I had always assumed they couldn't.

Charge only shooters that pursued in the previous turn can't shoot at chargers because (as has now been clarified) they are not standing to receive. However, if they declare a charge of their own, they can use shoot-and-charge if in range.

Is that correct?

Great to have. you join us Lawrence.  Your proofing skills are of course superb and you precision appreciated.

One of the great things I find is that we have a community now that has erred away from the rule mongering of the DBX era which we all fell into - me included. 

So certain things that are the intent have never been questioned in 6 years or needed to be stated explicitly. Now as an author I can well see Phil Barker's frustration and asking people to 'play as intended' - alas he would never engage to tell us what was intended.  Here of course I do  if needed.

[LawrenceG]

OK, so the rule is:

Troops that countercharge or intercept may not shoot in any phase.

It's just not written in the book.

[tarnowski1]

OK, so missile focussed troops can shoot at chargers after they have countercharged or intercepted. I had always assumed they couldn't.

Charge only shooters that pursued in the previous turn can't shoot at chargers because (as has now been clarified) they are not standing to receive. However, if they declare a charge of their own, they can use shoot-and-charge if in range.

Is that correct?

Great to have. you join us Lawrence.  Your proofing skills are of course superb and you precision appreciated.

One of the great things I find is that we have a community now that has erred away from the rule mongering of the DBX era which we all fell into - me included. 

So certain things that are the intent have never been questioned in 6 years or needed to be stated explicitly. Now as an author I can well see Phil Barker's frustration and asking people to 'play as intended' - alas he would never engage to tell us what was intended.  Here of course I do  if needed.

never been questioned because no one interpreted a previous turn's pursuit carrying over in the way you now seem to suggest it now should. There was no memory in MEG, bar the exception to prove the rule of slows from camp Kabs. Now there is memory, which is why I think there originally was a clarification around foot pursuing, which was also different from the one (10.4) that made the PDF rules,

'IF FOOT PURSUE AND CONTACT FRESH ENEMY IN THE FIGHTING PHASE AND ARE THEN CHARGED IN THE FOLLOWING CHARGE PHASE, DO THEY COUNT AS STANDING TO RECEIVE A CHARGE? They do count as standing to receive the charge. Actual movement by bases is not what defines "standing to receive" it is whether they have declared a charge, etc. "Charge" is defined in the glossary on page 213 and starts "A
move declared in the charge phase intended to end in combat." - and a pursuit that makes contact is not that. Doing it otherwise opens up too many gamey moves that would detract from the fun.'

[lionheartrjc]

The argument about memory is spurious.  We always had to remember that a pursuit into fresh enemy in the fighting phase had to be fought as a charge combat in the following turn.  As Robin says, treating it as a charge seems common sense.  (My, I am agreeing with Robin - I better lie down!).

I'll add the "Troops that countercharge or intercept may not shoot in any phase." into the errata.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Good plan. It is as you say in the turn sequence which is often good total back on.

S