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Author Topic: Re: Points Systems  (Read 3632 times)

LawrenceG

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Re: Points Systems
« on: November 14, 2023, 10:24:34 AM »
If the points system is balanced, then "nerfing" troops will be neutral regarding overall army effectiveness. It just means a change in tactics might be needed.


Princeps

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Re: Re: Points Systems
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2023, 10:46:18 AM »
If the points system is balanced, then "nerfing" troops will be neutral regarding overall army effectiveness. It just means a change in tactics might be needed.

Hello Lawrence,

That reads as something Games Workshop might have said when they went for the powercreep that accompanied its 5th and (especially) 6th Edition of WH 40K, including the infamous rework of the Grey Knights.

I disagree with you on this : points alone are not enough to balance armies; one needs to look at it as to where these points CAN be spent as well, or then I’d like someone to explain to me why Mesoamerican armies are so rarely fielded, even when flavorful (such as Aztecs or Incas). Could it be that they CANNOT field anything that has a semblance of resistance against European lancers ?

“You spent as much as me, therefore we are balanced” seems to me too easy and too weak an argument.  It is not only a matter of means, but also a matter of opportunities.

Best,
Antoine

badhabum

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2023, 10:56:14 AM »
I must admit I agree with Princeps.

Points may be a mitigating system, you may add up points but quality will remain quality. Finding a balance is an uneasy task.

lionheartrjc

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2023, 10:57:28 AM »
In some senses you are both correct.  A points system can only go so far.  How effective an army might be can depend upon the context of the tournament.  For example, when we had the footsloggers tournament (infantry only armies) then several of the American armies appeared.  In an open tournament these armies can struggle.  However Mound Builder did well at Skullrollers.

I think many people focus far too much on characteristics and not on their own tactics and how they use an army.

In general, I think MeG does a pretty good job with the points system as evidenced by the wide range of armies that get used in tournaments.

Richard


Hammy

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Re: Re: Points Systems
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2023, 11:10:30 AM »
I disagree with you on this : points alone are not enough to balance armies; one needs to look at it as to where these points CAN be spent as well, or then I’d like someone to explain to me why Mesoamerican armies are so rarely fielded, even when flavorful (such as Aztecs or Incas). Could it be that they CANNOT field anything that has a semblance of resistance against European lancers ?

I am on RJC's side here.

Of course the points aren't perfect for every possible match up. Devastating charging lancers vs pike for example. The mounted pay loads of points for something that is directly cancelled.

What the points do a very good job of is getting armies to have roughly equivalent power and even at the same points army A is significantly better than army B, army B will be significantly better than army C which could well be better than army A.

Compared to other games I play (for example Flames of War) the MeG points system is very good.

As for massively outmatched armies like meso americans, I think I managed to beat or at least very nearly beat Simon's Normans with my Libyans and that was back before the points made skirmishers a bit cheaper.

tarnowski1

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Re: Re: Points Systems
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2023, 11:13:19 AM »
If the points system is balanced, then "nerfing" troops will be neutral regarding overall army effectiveness. It just means a change in tactics might be needed.

Hello Lawrence,

That reads as something Games Workshop might have said when they went for the powercreep that accompanied its 5th and (especially) 6th Edition of WH 40K, including the infamous rework of the Grey Knights.

I disagree with you on this : points alone are not enough to balance armies; one needs to look at it as to where these points CAN be spent as well, or then I’d like someone to explain to me why Mesoamerican armies are so rarely fielded, even when flavorful (such as Aztecs or Incas). Could it be that they CANNOT field anything that has a semblance of resistance against European lancers ?

“You spent as much as me, therefore we are balanced” seems to me too easy and too weak an argument.  It is not only a matter of means, but also a matter of opportunities.

Best,
Antoine

I think America armies are so rarely fielded because unlike most other lists they were not 'balanced' in design against their usual opponents, much is a hang over from 1970's decisions and never really studied hard since? few have an interest?  to mind there is an inherent perceived inability to handle Legions, cavalry, armoured sword and buckler men etc. which is true but shouldnt be relevant to their capabilities in the rules. It is no different to say that of a Middle Kingdom Egyptian Axeman V a Sword and Buckler man, yet they ARE comparable in MEG

For Example, Aztecs, no reason they should not be Formed flex or tribal flex. They seemed quite comfortable operating in any terrain, used ambushes, carried out standup fights in the open, Probably an argument that they 'shoved'  less disciplined enemies.  How about 2hcc? , some of those clubs were designed for massive blunt trauma. Are Atlatl really effective darts or more Impact weapon due to the very high velocity on impact and possible volley use rather than persistent skirmishing? Worth noting the few accounts where the Atlatl is mentioned in Spanish sources indicate it made a proper mess of the attacking troops, though one was city fighting so take that as you find it. Its also a weapon strongly associated with Gods and heroes in aztec pictorial sources. So important religiously or because it was seen as the back bone of their prowess?

does tribal/form flex, short spear with darts create a power army, probably not, does it make Cavalry armies less happy, probably yes. Would it break the synergy for fighting similarly categorized historical enemies, also probably not. Now flex impact weapon woudl make the Aztecs and their neighbors the Imperial Roman of the Americas, which might not be an unfair comparison or too far away from their capabilities.

if you haven't guessed its something I've been thinking about and researching on and off for years  :D

Regards
Matt



nikgaukroger

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2023, 11:36:33 AM »
I think many people focus far too much on characteristics and not on their own tactics and how they use an army.


This. So very much this.

Also, a basic grasp of probability helps a lot.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2023, 02:51:45 PM »
Part of what most of some of you do miss is the fact that outside UK , people do not get the opportunity to play that often .

Hence a good balancing system is what is asked for and it is a difficult task

No NIK people do not play as often as some players in UK manage. UK is a wargamer's paradise

nikgaukroger

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2023, 03:03:42 PM »
I think Richard's advice is good advice regardless of how often you get to play - although obviously you should get better at doing it the more you play  :)

Likewise a basic grasp of probability is useful in any game with dice regardless of how often you play.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2023, 03:05:48 PM »
I'd also add that once you've got your head around the game it can be useful to try out different styles of army if you have the opportunity, even if only occasionally. Does depend on having time and available opponents of course, but if you can manage it I think it is better than just sticking to one or similar armies. YMMV.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2023, 03:10:03 PM »
Part of what most of some of you do miss is the fact that outside UK , people do not get the opportunity to play that often .

Hence a good balancing system is what is asked for and it is a difficult task

No NIK people do not play as often as some players in UK manage. UK is a wargamer's paradise

I find it odd that you think we are not well aware that most MeG players probably do not play that often and only a small fraction play in tournaments.

I would argue that the points system in MeG is much better balanced than any similar ruleset. The list changes actually generally improve the balance by getting rid of gimmicks such as multiple UGs of Cretan archers.  I think it is unreasonable to expect the armies to be balanced for all levels of skill across 630 different armies (and across Magna and Pacto as well!).

Also French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.

daveparish

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2023, 03:54:07 PM »

I find it odd that you think we are not well aware that most MeG players probably do not play that often and only a small fraction play in tournaments.

I would argue that the points system in MeG is much better balanced than any similar ruleset. The list changes actually generally improve the balance by getting rid of gimmicks such as multiple UGs of Cretan archers.  I think it is unreasonable to expect the armies to be balanced for all levels of skill across 630 different armies (and across Magna and Pacto as well!).

Also French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.

Richard is too modest to say but he does a lot for Meg by putting on demo games at shows for new and non-competition players (in fact he was doing that at Warfare rather than competing). With that experience he probably knows more than most of us how non-competition players handle the rules!

Besides if you aren't able to get so many games I would have thought you would welcome some of these changes, particularly the one to Cretan archers. I fought the same Cretan heavy army that Nik dealt with  and it shot me to pieces (entirely due to the difference in skill between Nik and me, I would say). Extreme armies like that (sounds better than gimmick armies!) are more of a threat if you haven't seen them before and therefore more of a threat if you don't get many games. Surely that makes the change a benefit to you?

badhabum

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2023, 04:22:07 PM »
Quote
Also French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.

A minority but yes we do have some talented players and I count myself in ( I should use more winning armies ) . But minority does not make a blooming hobby !

LawrenceG

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2023, 04:49:55 PM »
Quote
Also French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.

A minority but yes we do have some talented players and I count myself in ( I should use more winning armies ) . But minority does not make a blooming hobby !

The majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at tournaments. At the most, only 5 do at each tournament.

PUNCH

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Re: Points Systems
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2023, 05:41:36 PM »
Part of what most of some of you do miss is the fact that outside UK , people do not get the opportunity to play that often .

Hence a good balancing system is what is asked for and it is a difficult task

No NIK people do not play as often as some players in UK manage. UK is a wargamer's paradise

I find it odd that you think we are not well aware that most MeG players probably do not play that often and only a small fraction play in tournaments.

I would argue that the points system in MeG is much better balanced than any similar ruleset. The list changes actually generally improve the balance by getting rid of gimmicks such as multiple UGs of Cretan archers.  I think it is unreasonable to expect the armies to be balanced for all levels of skill across 630 different armies (and across Magna and Pacto as well!).

Also French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.
Hi,

totally agree with Richard and I thank him for the work he does on the lists ( and the rules also  ;) )

Best regards.

Punch