2023 lists ?

[SteveO]

No you are spot on Accard but I can't find the thread either. I think Dru was one of those lamenting the ineffectiveness of the Vikings from memory (Dru?) but Si definitely did say it was worth looking at.

[LawrenceG]

I remember there being a topic, but I cant find it  now either.

From memory, it was along the lines of a player saying they thought it regrettable that Viking armies appeared so rarely in tournaments, and they felt that it was because the Vikings didn't have the ability to field mixed TuGS, unlike many of the Viking successor armies.

Simon H joined in and commented that it was something that was worth a look at.

Hope I haven't misrepresented anyone here!

You weren't thinking of this one, were you? https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1119.msg9522#msg9522

[accard]

No, not that one.

[lionheartrjc]

I remember there being a topic, but I cant find it  now either.

From memory, it was along the lines of a player saying they thought it regrettable that Viking armies appeared so rarely in tournaments, and they felt that it was because the Vikings didn't have the ability to field mixed TuGS, unlike many of the Viking successor armies.

Simon H joined in and commented that it was something that was worth a look at.

Hope I haven't misrepresented anyone here!

Sounds like the change I have listed for 2023.

Richard

[badhabum]

I was hoping you'd do some more research on that - looked a potentially interesting area to dig into.

I found nothing only the mention in the book and Asian sources are incompréhensible to me . But as sometimes one line is enough ..

Books ont Tibetans armies of that period are not easy to find but sometimes trust might be good enough . I do suppose that if the historian did mention the alliance and the sieges ..a sort of combined army existed and splited after defeat

[Dru]

No you are spot on Accard but I can't find the thread either. I think Dru was one of those lamenting the ineffectiveness of the Vikings from memory (Dru?) but Si definitely did say it was worth looking at.

It was on the MeG players FB page.

Si said "we should probably allow vikings an option and bondi behind in 6s and 9s. Then up to the general [and tagged RJC]"

I'll take some screenshots of the post and discussion:

[martymagnificent]

An old one that never seems to have been fully put to bed

Ming Artillery. There are two types (guns and cannon). There was an old thread where it was decided they would be experienced and for a while there was a list errata. When the 2022 lists came out the cannon are experienced but the guns are still unskilled. Assume one type was forgotten in the update (especially as they shoot as experienced if you chose to attach to another unit)?

On the topic of the Ming I would suggest that the firearm infantry being close is rather odd and that the lack of mixed formation options is also strange given the Ming enthusiasm for exotic infantry formations with an array of weapons (at least according to the GreatMingMilitary site)

Martin

[badhabum]

No you are spot on Accard but I can't find the thread either. I think Dru was one of those lamenting the ineffectiveness of the Vikings from memory (Dru?) but Si definitely did say it was worth looking at.

It was on the MeG players FB page.

Si said "we should probably allow vikings an option and bondi behind in 6s and 9s. Then up to the general [and tagged RJC]"

I'll take some screenshots of the post and discussion:

The problem I see here is that it was on FB ! too many sources, too many social media ! I would stick to the forum for such things as such discussions are lost on FB . I know there is a proposal for discord, but if I can understand people want to go on discord you will loose many people who do not go on social media and frankly I will not follow on discord . FB and this forum are adequate enough .

[nikgaukroger]

This forum is definitely the best place for army list questions as it is easier to go back and find them.

However, if people post elsewhere we do take notice, but they are more easily lost.

A MeG Discord is already a thing for those who like that - https://discord.com/channels/992723574576119859/992723574576119861

[Dru]

Let's keep the thread on task: for 2023 list discussions.

Feel free to open other threads for other topics like the virtues of various forums for conversations.

Cheers,
Dru

[Alduin]

I was looking at some lists in th meantime and.... I have to bring up something thats pretty much unimportant but still bothers me greatly. In asiatic succesors list the silver shields are superior.... well - why don't they have exceptional ? When I think of the best performing concrete tactical units in history (not formations mind you) of mankind this is the literal 1st that comes to mind. And seeing that for example Ceasers legion is exceptionalit is ... strange.

I know it is obviously a subjective topis but having this one TUG of exceptional pike in Eumenes' or Perdikas' lists propbaly wont be game breaking and there is no denying that the original silver shields literally conquered the known world - they are also better documented that for example the khans guard that has exceptional and have propably the most impressive battle record of any formation in antiquity.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this ?

[nikgaukroger]

I was looking at some lists in th meantime and.... I have to bring up something thats pretty much unimportant but still bothers me greatly. In asiatic succesors list the silver shields are superior.... well - why don't they have exceptional ? When I think of the best performing concrete tactical units in history (not formations mind you) of mankind this is the literal 1st that comes to mind. And seeing that for example Ceasers legion is exceptionalit is ... strange.

I know it is obviously a subjective topis but having this one TUG of exceptional pike in Eumenes' or Perdikas' lists propbaly wont be game breaking and there is no denying that the original silver shields literally conquered the known world - they are also better documented that for example the khans guard that has exceptional and have propably the most impressive battle record of any formation in antiquity.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this ?

See this topic for when it was discussed earlier this year - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2317.15

[Alduin]

There are arguments for the idea and then, there is not a single good argumant for them being just "superior"
(two that are involved summarized as - "i like romans more than greeks" and "it wont improve the army" are to say the least not arguments at all.
For example: I like greeks more and i think that it will improve the army - i believe you are not convinced to change silver shields as exceptional rn- why would you expect that someone would change their opinion the other way around).

Idk if there is any more entitled unit in the classical age for the "exceptional" status. I do not plan on playing asiatic succesors or anything but ... it is just bizzare that some other units are clearly favored in this departament (like "pretorian guard"/"guard legionaries" - it is beyond me why they are held to such a high regard, ofc beside the fact that someone clearly liked romans a lot). Isnt it the whole idea of "exceptional" to reference certain very succesfull units ? Like cesars Xth or agema ? Not some units as abstracts (for example persian guard cav/legion guard - i am deeply unsure why they are not just "superior")

[martymagnificent]

An old one that never seems to have been fully put to bed

Ming Artillery. There are two types (guns and cannon). There was an old thread where it was decided they would be experienced and for a while there was a list errata. When the 2022 lists came out the cannon are experienced but the guns are still unskilled. Assume one type was forgotten in the update (especially as they shoot as experienced if you chose to attach to another unit)?

On the topic of the Ming I would suggest that the firearm infantry being close is rather odd and that the lack of mixed formation options is also strange given the Ming enthusiasm for exotic infantry formations with an array of weapons (at least according to the GreatMingMilitary site)

Martin

Thoughts?

[nikgaukroger]

It will have been noted.

If I may quote Richard:

I have 630+ lists to sort out for 2023.  I will not be giving updates on each individual change.