2023 lists ?

[Dru]

It will have been noted.

If I may quote Richard:

I have 630+ lists to sort out for 2023.  I will not be giving updates on each individual change.

Oh wow that is a LOT of work this far along in the MEG development.

Are you both reviewing every single one of the 630+ lists? That seems like a lot of work for lists that are supposed to be pretty much done?

Or just reviewing lists that people have asked questions about (Much MUCH less than 630+?) - though the quote above makes that seem not the case?

Bit surprised if you have to go through 630+ lists again - wish you much luck and coffee!

[nikgaukroger]

Richard is making some formatting changes to further improve usability, so yes all the lists are getting some work on them - although in terms of army content those changes are a minority.

[Dru]

Ok, well if there is anything that the group can help with, please do shout out.

[lionheartrjc]

Ok, well if there is anything that the group can help with, please do shout out.

If anyone is prepared to proof read the list sets once they have been updated then great.  It involves checking the basics, like I haven't missed out a list, the contents correspond to the index etc.  I won't pretend it is anything but dull, but I would really appreciate it.  Private message me if you are prepared to help.  Needs to be done between November and mid-December.

Richard

[Dru]

Ok, well if there is anything that the group can help with, please do shout out.

If anyone is prepared to proof read the list sets once they have been updated then great.  It involves checking the basics, like I haven't missed out a list, the contents correspond to the index etc.  I won't pretend it is anything but dull, but I would really appreciate it.  Private message me if you are prepared to help.  Needs to be done between November and mid-December.

Richard

Good idea!

Will be interesting to see how many people who are vocal about lists offer to help

I'll send you a PM.

Dru

[Doomsmile]

Two notes on the Later Northern Song list (Ghengis, pgs.18-21):

The section on Troop Notes mentions that “Caltrops were used as a defense against cavalry”, but no LN Song troops have access to this characteristic. Would it be possible to spread some of that pointy love around the list?
(Most LN Song troops need all the help they can get against cavalry charges!)


Second (and more frivolously), would it be possible to revisit the rules for Dongwu Che battle wagons? The troop notes describes them as being commonly used to spearhead attacks in urban areas, but as battle wagons they cannot practically advance on an enemy (or charge them), and their crossbows are totally useless due to cover and sight rules in towns/villages (the only terrain they can operate in), which makes it practically impossible for them to do their described jobs.
I know this is a big ask for a specialist gimmick unit, but it’s such a cool specialist gimmick unit that it’s at least worth a little trouble, right?

[nikgaukroger]

Two notes on the Later Northern Song list (Ghengis, pgs.18-21):

The section on Troop Notes mentions that “Caltrops were used as a defense against cavalry”, but no LN Song troops have access to this characteristic. Would it be possible to spread some of that pointy love around the list?
(Most LN Song troops need all the help they can get against cavalry charges!)

I'm afraid I think this is an old troop note that should have been removed when the Song lists got an overhaul for 2020. Some troops could have Caltrops before that reworking, but they didn't after it.

Also, IMO the Later Northern Song infantry with Polearm and Crossbow in the same unit are pretty effective against a lot of their historical opponents.

[martymagnificent]

Yeah, not a list in desperate need of caltrops in my experience.

I still tend to think polearm should drop 5 points though. Essentially still just a worse, slightly more expensive, longspear.

Tend to agree the current version of the Dongwu Che is pretty much unplayable. I'm more bothered in general by the high cost battlewagons pay for polearm (44 points a base) and how little benefit they get from it. None of the polearms factor cancelling abilities matter to a battlewagon and it has a built in 'never works against infantry in melee' problem. Dropping the cost of polearm would help a little but I would suggest battlewagons should count polearm in a single rank against foot in melee (or the jumble of melee weapons that accompanied many wagons could be classified as something else).

On another fringe troops type, there was talk from RJC of lowering the cost of artillery SUG's, is this still being considered?
 
Martin

[nikgaukroger]

Second (and more frivolously), would it be possible to revisit the rules for Dongwu Che battle wagons? The troop notes describes them as being commonly used to spearhead attacks in urban areas, but as battle wagons they cannot practically advance on an enemy (or charge them), and their crossbows are totally useless due to cover and sight rules in towns/villages (the only terrain they can operate in), which makes it practically impossible for them to do their described jobs.
I know this is a big ask for a specialist gimmick unit, but it’s such a cool specialist gimmick unit that it’s at least worth a little trouble, right?

Must confess I am not sure of the basis of these anyway - when I did the rewrite of the Song I can't recall finding anything on them but left them in in case I had missed something and because they were something a bit different. I'd be interested if anyone find the source for them in Song times.

[LawrenceG]

Second (and more frivolously), would it be possible to revisit the rules for Dongwu Che battle wagons? The troop notes describes them as being commonly used to spearhead attacks in urban areas, but as battle wagons they cannot practically advance on an enemy (or charge them), and their crossbows are totally useless due to cover and sight rules in towns/villages (the only terrain they can operate in), which makes it practically impossible for them to do their described jobs.
I know this is a big ask for a specialist gimmick unit, but it’s such a cool specialist gimmick unit that it’s at least worth a little trouble, right?

Must confess I am not sure of the basis of these anyway - when I did the rewrite of the Song I can't recall finding anything on them but left them in in case I had missed something and because they were something a bit different. I'd be interested if anyone find the source for them in Song times.

In June 2016 Lawrence Ho posted in the facebook DBMM group translation of an extract from a book he had:

《宋史·卷三六八·列傳第一百二十七》 勝嘗自創如意戰車數百兩 General Wei Shing (勝) invented and made several hundred War Wagons (Type A, the do as one wish Wagon, translator notes)，炮車數十兩 less than 100 Type B Stone Thrower Wagons (Type B, the Stone Thrower Wagon)，車上為獸面木牌 Animal Face Wooden Boards mounted on the Wagon (to protect the crew, notes added by the translator) ，大槍數十 less than 100 long spear (not firearms!)，垂氈幕軟牌 hanging heavy carpets to provide soft cover，每車用二人推轂 Each wagon was pushed by two men，可蔽五十人 can provide cover for 50 men。行則載輜重器甲 Carrying heavy equipments and supplies when moving，止則為營 serve as Camp when remaining stationery，掛搭如城壘 serve as Fortress when erecting additional parts on it.，人馬不能近 Neither men nor beast can approach it in close quarter (from outside, Translator Notes)；遇敵又可以御箭簇 Can provide cover to defense against arrowheads when meeting enemies 。列陣則如意車在外 The fighting formation: Type A War Wagon in exterior (as obstacle, translator notes) ，以旗蔽障 hanging flags to serve as hindrance and cover，弩車當陣門 Type C War Wagon (Ballista Vehicle) in key position of the formation，其上置床子弩 Mounting Ballista on top of the Wagon，矢大如鑿 the size of the ballista bolt is like a chisel ，一矢能射數人 A shot can hit several people (penetrate, translator notes)，發三矢可數百步 shoot 3 bolts can reach several hundred paces 。炮車在陣中 Type B Wagon (Stone throwers Wagon) in the centre of the battle formation ，施火石炮 firing rocket，亦二百步 can reach 200 paces。兩陣相近 If the enemies are close，則陣間發弓弩箭炮 the troops in the battle formation can shoot bow, crossbow and stone throwers (likely to be behind the cover provided by the man handled wagons)，近陣門則刀斧槍手突出 when the enemy reach the open area of this battle formation, swordsmen, spearmen and axemen will emerge and ambush them，交陣則出騎兵 If the enemy do not fight in close quarter, use Cavalry to attack ，兩響掩擊 Two signals to sound the attack，得捷拔陣追襲 When winning the battle, pursuit the enemy by unforming this battle formation，少卻則入陣間稍憩 If the enemy withdraw in order, retire inside this battle formation to rest。士卒不疲 The troops will not be tired，進退俱利 Facilitate retreat and advance。伺便出擊 Assist to wait and choose the right moment to begin attack ，慮有拒遏 Provide defense benefit (to delay and possibly stop the enemy) if consider not the day for the battle (i.e. hesitant to fight)，預為解脫計 Have prepared for activating the strategem for breaking out，夜習不使人見 Nobody can see your patrol in the night。以其制上於朝 Has reported this formation and its uses to the Emperor，詔諸軍遵其式造焉 The Emperor has ordered other armies to make them as well and follow the tactics.

The "Type A" seems to be (roughly speaking) a wheelbarrow with spears sticking out of the front. That would be pretty good for pushing down a narrow street against defenders. Not sure how it would be classified in MeG. Maybe more like a barricade than a battle wagon.

[nikgaukroger]

Thanks. Some of that looks a bit familiar.

More of a barricade vibe IMO.

[LawrenceG]

(Song war wagons)

Or possibly a list-specific special rule that battlewagons of this sort can contact enemy.

[lionheartrjc]

Probably a list characteristic for infantry. TuGs.  Bonus +2 in charge/melee combat if fighting in Towns (except at edge where you already get Barricades).  Gives a reason for the player to select Towns as terrain which is probably fitting in China.

Richard

[nikgaukroger]

Not sure towns feature more frequently in battles in China than elsewhere.

[Jilu]

please please number the lists and the pages....