Defending the Edge of Terrain

[RobAustin]

I remember there being a discussion of this in the old forum, but I am unsure of the final decisions.

If a unit is defending the edge of a terrain piece, is the attacker considered in the terrain or not?

Likewise, can I set a unit outside the terrain piece, touching the edge, so that my unit is outside the terrain, but an enemy unit moving to contact me from within the terrain is considered in the terrain?

Our situation was that we had lancer cavalry moving through a wood. The enemy moved their cavalry to block us. They wanted to set up right at the edge so that they would no be in terrain but we would. However, vaguely recalling the earlier discussion, we decided that they had to choose to defend in the woods or outside and that both units would fight in the same terrain. This seems especially sensible with cavalry, since one usually assumes there is a short countercharge by the defender when charged.

Did we do it correctly? Or can you set up outside terrain and force those trying to exit it t be fighting within it?

Thanks.

[marshalney2000]

I think I was the one who raised this in the previous forum. Simon's answer was that the attacker would also count as being in terrain if attacking enemy who were defending the edge.
I assume troops on the outside would be in good terrain but the attacker would still be considered in terrain.

[RobAustin]

I think I was the one who raised this in the previous forum. Simon's answer was that the attacker would also count as being in terrain if attacking enemy who were defending the edge.
I assume troops on the outside would be in good terrain but the attacker would still be considered in terrain.

See, we assumed, based on the first part, that the attacker if going into terrain and is counted in that terrain, the same would be true if "going into" clear terrain.

[marshalney2000]

You maybe right but my view was that in the first case the attacker was going into rough terrain to attack while in the second the attacker was waiting for a disorganised foe emerging from thatvterrain into the open. They are hardly going to wait for the emerging troops to form up.

[RobAustin]

Yeah. I honestly don't know.

[marshalney2000]

We are in the same position.

[lionheartrjc]

This was all clarified in the forum last year - but perhaps is still confusing.

It is the edge in contact with the enemy that determines whether a file is in terrain or not for combat purposes.   (It is the entire base for movement purposes.)

So the only possibility for not being in terrain and your opponent being in terrain (or vice versa) is if your edges are not entirely aligned.  This can occur for example if a Medium foot elements front edge is partially in terrain and is charged by a cavalry element who choose to stay entirely out of the terrain.  Note - in this situation the cavalry is in the open but the medium foot is not.

You cannot position yourself in terrain such that your front edge is entirely in the terrain and your opponents front edge in combat with you is not (because the two are touching).

Richard

[RobAustin]

This was all clarified in the forum last year - but perhaps is still confusing.

It is the edge in contact with the enemy that determines whether a file is in terrain or not for combat purposes.   (It is the entire base for movement purposes.)

So the only possibility for not being in terrain and your opponent being in terrain (or vice versa) is if your edges are not entirely aligned.  This can occur for example if a Medium foot elements front edge is partially in terrain and is charged by a cavalry element who choose to stay entirely out of the terrain.  Note - in this situation the cavalry is in the open but the medium foot is not.

You cannot position yourself in terrain such that your front edge is entirely in the terrain and your opponents front edge in combat with you is not (because the two are touching).

Richard

And just to completely confirm the converse of the bold section: you cannot position yourself outside a terrain piece such that your front edge is entirely out of the terrain and your opponent's front edge in combat with you is in the terrain, if they align.

[marshalney2000]

Just to add to that. If you are outside the terrain and your opponent's pike unit moves out with its front base then presumably all the rear ranks which are still in terrain cannot count pike factors.

[lionheartrjc]

Just to add to that. If you are outside the terrain and your opponent's pike unit moves out with its front base then presumably all the rear ranks which are still in terrain cannot count pike factors.

NO.  It is the front edge of the file that matters, not where the bases are...

Remember, bases are a lot deeper than the units would be in real life. 

Richard

[Simon Meg-Meister]

As richard says always the front edge that matters.
Where they meet.

So if you in... so are they
If your out ... so are they
Simple

Then add twists for funny contacts of course following normal rules for fighting as if aligned.

Si

[RobAustin]

So if you in... so are they
If your out ... so are they
Simple

That's how we played it. Yay!

[craig.w]

Ok, I've been doing this wrong for a year. To be honest I thought it was straightforward in the rules:

p. 90. "3. You can claim the factors for this [effects of terrain in combat] if the base your file is in contact with, or any base it is claiming for support to the rear (pikes, spears etc.) is even partly in terrain that causes such effects."

If a base is half out of terrain that affects it, fighting a base wholly in the open, then the base in the open should get the bonus. Or so I thought.

So unless there is a clarification or rule change, I'm confused.

[Jilu]

so it is easy : if any part of the edge of a base that is fighting is in terrain then the base is fighting as if in terrain on that edge?

that would mean :

front edge is partialy in terrain : that edge is considered in terrain.
if for the same base the contacted edge is not in terrain it is not considered in terrain.
example a base with a front edge in terrain but a flank edge not

if the bases in a file are contacted on the flank/being a true flank charge or one considered in the flank :

one base of the file  can be in terrain,  the other not.

a base can be in and out of terrain at the same time depending on what part of the base is contacted

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Ok, I've been doing this wrong for a year. To be honest I thought it was straightforward in the rules:

p. 90. "3. You can claim the factors for this [effects of terrain in combat] if the base your file is in contact with, or any base it is claiming for support to the rear (pikes, spears etc.) is even partly in terrain that causes such effects."

If a base is half out of terrain that affects it, fighting a base wholly in the open, then the base in the open should get the bonus. Or so I thought.

So unless there is a clarification or rule change, I'm confused.

Yes I issued a clarry about line of combat.
I'll have to find it though.

Si