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Author Topic: early crusader and internal ally general  (Read 381 times)

badhabum

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early crusader and internal ally general
« on: February 17, 2019, 02:01:09 PM »
Early crusader have as mandatory units

4 superior Knights
16 infantry spearmen

Now If I wish to take 2 internal ally generals how should I do it :
Each will have to take
4 SUP knights and 8 spearmen .
Just to be sure 100 % , that means that all mandatory units of the list have been chosen and the other generals may take other units ( otherwise that would mean a basic of 32 spearmen ...)

The idea being that internal allies must take a minimum of units and that that part is taken from the mandatory amount of units to be taken

nikgaukroger

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2019, 02:29:39 PM »
The core army takes the minima first - pont 3 in the instructions on how to create an internal allied contingent - then they take the required troops:

Quote
They must take UGs sufficient to get them to at least 50% of the minimums in the list if there is sufficient allowance for a UG after the core army itself has taken the minimum.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2019, 02:34:02 PM »
So int this case the core army first takes 4 knights and 16 spearmen; each of the allies tghen takes 4 knights and 8 spearmen as minima which will use up all of the spearmen as there are 32 max (assuming you mean First Crusade list) and leave 12 more knights available for the core army.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2019, 02:41:39 PM »
I presume you mean the First Crusade army list - there isn't an "Early Crusader" army list!

The section at the start of each set of lists describes what you have to do. 

1. The core army must take the minimums first.  So the core army must take 4 "Crusader Lords and Knights" and 16 "Crusader Spearmen".

2. If you have internal allies each ally must take at least 50% of the minimums as long as the maximum's are not exceeded.
The maximums are 24 and 32 respectively.  So each ally can take 4 "Crusader Lords and Knights" and 8 "Crusader Spearmen". 

Because 32 "Crusader Spearmen" have been taken, no more can be taken. 
However becasuse only 16 "Crusader Lords and Knights" have been taken, additional knights can be taken - either to increase the TuGs to 6's or to add additional TuGs - so long as the total taken doesn't exceed 24.

NOTE:  If you were to take a third internal ally - that ally must take at least 4 "Crusader Lords and Knights" but could not take any "Crusader Spearmen" (because all 32 have already been taken).  All allies of course must have between 2 and 4 UGs.  If the army date was 1098 CE, the core army would have to take at least 4 "Crusaders without horses" as would each of the allies.

Richard

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2019, 02:57:57 PM »
I would suggest to change the mandatory number of spearmen to 6 or 8 as due to mandatory ally if We take 2 ally, without counting the generals it is 5000 mandatory points ...a quite huge amount.of points ...

nikgaukroger

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2019, 03:26:20 PM »
2 allies is a choice you make not mandatory - no change needed IMO.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2019, 03:40:55 PM »
The choice is limited

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 10:51:05 AM »
I have a proposal.

each allied general will have to take 8 bases of spearmen.

There is a flemish group of 8 long spear infantry .

To have a bit more choice, I would suggest to give the possibility to one of the internal ally general to be the count of Flanders and replace the 8 mandatory spearmen by 8 Long Spear infantry who are part of the contingent of the count of Flanders . it is in the spirit and still very logical  8)

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2019, 09:24:22 AM »
No comments ?

lionheartrjc

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 11:53:35 AM »
No comments ?

Frankly no!  The rules about internal allies apply to all armies.  I cannot see any historical justification for any special change to this list.  It seems to be a case of special pleading.

Richard

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 03:35:51 PM »
There is one historical justification .

The flemish spearmen were part of one of the contingents . Why should it not be possible to take them as part of the mandatory spearmen for an allied sub-general if we consider them part of the count of flanders group ?

My reading is the following : we must take 8 mandatory spearmen, short spear for every internal ally . There is a group of 8 spearmen with long spears that are" brought" by the count of flanders . So why could they not be taken to replace those 8 mandatory short spearmen in an internal ally sub general  ?

Just an idea but historically very sound to me, the flanders hostt .

nikgaukroger

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2019, 06:22:01 PM »
Are the Flemish spearmen mentioned as being different in the 1st Crusade? I was under the impression that they start to become a thing later into the C11th and then as mercenary groupings rather than the usual "levy" - their heyday of effectiveness was later again.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2019, 07:22:42 PM »
Common spearmen : short spear, shield cover and possible Shieldwall

Flemish spearmen : long spear, possible shield cover

all formed close, average protected

nikgaukroger

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 08:05:52 PM »
I was on about the historical record not the army list  ::)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: early crusader and internal ally general
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2019, 04:23:36 PM »
Sorry Nick,

Of course they should be better. They are flemish so superior long spear ... 8)