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Author Topic: "Revealed shooters"  (Read 137 times)

nikgaukroger

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"Revealed shooters"
« on: February 07, 2019, 12:20:41 AM »
In a game tonight RJC and I came across a situation where we felt there may be some confusion from the rules around "revealed shooters".

Situation was thus:



Cavalry unit A is charging along the path indicated towards shooty cavalry B - the measuring stick indicates where contact will take place if B stands.

However, B being sensible, decides to Skirmish.

A's move will now continue towards C.

Rules say that if a response reveals a new shooter further down the path of the charge this file does not shoot (worth noting it is by file and not unit).

So is C being revealed by B's charge response?

Diagrams on pages 71 and 78 show the path of the charge to extend beyond the initial contact point - apply that logic to the picture and it appears C may not be being revealed.

Between us we have seen this played both ways  :o

I may reveal how we played it after seeing people's views  ;) :P 8)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 12:22:17 AM by nikgaukroger »
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

awat03

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2019, 01:47:51 AM »
I would say that the whole frontage of unit A can be seen by unit C when the charge is declared so there is nothing to be revealed. All shooting requirements have been meet in regards to seeing both base corners of the target and as the bases adjacent to the base which hits unit B can move 1 BW forward they will come within 1 BW of unit C allowing them to shoot.

Kokor Hekkus

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2019, 07:26:02 AM »
We play revealed as not having direct sight at the start of the charge

lionheartrjc

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2019, 07:37:04 AM »
Before giving an answer, it is always important to READ THE RULES.

9.4D4.2 (page 75) says the Path of Charge is the entire area bases would currently cover going the maximum speed, excluding area that cannot be accessed due to intervening bases (whether responding or not).

Cosider what would happen if B chooses to stand or was a unit that could not skirmish/run away.  In those circumstances C would not be able to shoot in the impact phase (as it would not be within 1BW of the charge path) but in the shooting phase.  So if C is allowed to shoot in the impact phase it will be dependent upon the decision made by unit B. 

9.4E2 (page 78) says that "If a response move reveals a new shooter further down the path of the charge, this file does not shoot."  The example given is skirmishers in front of a shooting TuG, so doesn't clearly address this situation.  Clearly it depends upon an interpretation of "reveal".

Note also, that if unit B skirmishers, unit A can choose "to follow" unit B.  This has never been completetely defined, but I (when umpiring) have interpreted it as allowing unit A to change it's charge direction by the minimum necessary so that (with sufficient move distance which it may not have) it would contact unit B.

The situation for the knights was pretty hopeless, it was facing two skilled shooting units (fours), a unit of skirmishers in cantabrian and a unit of 6 experienced shooters. After this charge it was charged in the flank by unit B, (who rolled two skulls!), then turned to flank and the following turn in the front/flank by unit C.  It broke unit B before it was broken.

Richard

nikgaukroger

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2019, 07:43:18 AM »
I would say that the whole frontage of unit A can be seen by unit C when the charge is declared so there is nothing to be revealed. All shooting requirements have been meet in regards to seeing both base corners of the target and as the bases adjacent to the base which hits unit B can move 1 BW forward they will come within 1 BW of unit C allowing them to shoot.

Couple of things which may affect your analysis. B is not standing, it is skirmishing; and if B did stand files from A would not be able to step forward as they would not hit enemy as C is more than 1 BW from the line of contact with B.
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craig.w

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2019, 08:15:08 AM »
Revealed to me means that it wasn't visible at the time of shooting. This was visible so it was not 'revealed'. Therefore it can shoot.

nikgaukroger

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2019, 08:29:57 AM »
The example given is skirmishers in front of a shooting TuG, so doesn't clearly address this situation.  Clearly it depends upon an interpretation of "reveal".

Indeed. In the example the skirmishers must evade and in that case it would appear that the path of the charge for shooting purposes is allowed to take that into account - but the case where a run away/skirmish is optional is not clearly covered and a diagram showing that would be most helpful I think.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Kokor Hekkus

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2019, 09:43:01 AM »
Revealed to me means that it wasn't visible at the time of shooting. This was visible so it was not 'revealed'. Therefore it can shoot.

Agreed, with C only shooting if B comes within 1BW

badhabum

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 10:40:37 AM »
I have some doubts so I think Simon might be needed here to tell us what is the intend behind the wording in the rules.


Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 12:09:16 PM »
Another fiddle area where time pressure precludes the rule answer but I can at least lay out the intent for now.

REVEALED = something that can shoot but that had no line of sight beforehand.  So must be hidden behind something that does a repsonse move away from them or through them.  These I do not want to shoot as it creates all sorts of gamey entrapment tactics and feels wrong anyway.

To do the above  ...

The laborious approach (always avoided in MeG) would be to do the Sk/RA first with its shooting and then shoot anything else that comes in 1BW that is not revealed.  Could do that but cumbersome. 
Hence the diagram where the path of charge only goes beyond the "evaders" edge.  That, in principle, cuts out any revealed shooters, but allows shooting form those that are not. 
Hence PATH OF CHARGE = Area passed over until contact plus beyond for anything not revealed IF the receiving UG is doing a SKIRMISH or RUN AWAY.  Tidied up in vs 2 to be more explicit.

I will finish that and issue it as a clarry.

Again hope intent and principles help in the meantime.  On the above therefore the ones to the side are not "revealed" as several have stated.

Si

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nikgaukroger

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 12:29:31 PM »
Another fiddle area where time pressure precludes the rule answer but I can at least lay out the intent for now.

REVEALED = something that can shoot but that had no line of sight beforehand.  So must be hidden behind something that does a repsonse move away from them or through them.  These I do not want to shoot as it creates all sorts of gamey entrapment tactics and feels wrong anyway.

Yup, not allowing a skirmish foot unit to sit in front of a friendly unit that can also shoot so there are 2 lots of shooting at a charger is a good thing  :)


Quote
To do the above  ...

The laborious approach (always avoided in MeG) would be to do the Sk/RA first with its shooting and then shoot anything else that comes in 1BW that is not revealed.  Could do that but cumbersome. 

Having done effectively that in games it isn't really an issue - in my example once B has decided what to do you can see where the charge path will go within 1 BW of C and so see which bases shoot.


Quote
Hence the diagram where the path of charge only goes beyond the "evaders" edge.  That, in principle, cuts out any revealed shooters, but allows shooting form those that are not. 
Hence PATH OF CHARGE = Area passed over until contact plus beyond for anything not revealed IF the receiving UG is doing a SKIRMISH or RUN AWAY.  Tidied up in vs 2 to be more explicit.

I will finish that and issue it as a clarry.

Cheers  :)


Quote
Again hope intent and principles help in the meantime.  On the above therefore the ones to the side are not "revealed" as several have stated.

Si


Very helpful IMO  8)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2019, 12:37:29 PM »
Always a pleasure as long as my brain is functioning!!

Si
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple

stuuk

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2019, 10:32:46 PM »
Let me see if I have this right - the way I have always seen it done is:

The path of the charger is a 5UD length rectangle (because charger moves 5UD) which covers the area the unit will charge through and end in.
In the case of the above, lets say that imaginary box enters within 1UD of unit C.

The result then, would be all of unit C shooting and 2 files of unit B shooting (or 3 files if the box goes within 1UD of the 2nd file down)

Is this correct?

lionheartrjc

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 07:31:20 AM »
Let me see if I have this right - the way I have always seen it done is:

The path of the charger is a 5UD length rectangle (because charger moves 5UD) which covers the area the unit will charge through and end in.
In the case of the above, lets say that imaginary box enters within 1UD of unit C.

The result then, would be all of unit C shooting and 2 files of unit B shooting (or 3 files if the box goes within 1UD of the 2nd file down)

Is this correct?


I think you have it correct. Because of the wheel made by the chargers, the 5 BW is measured from the outside corner. This assumes unit B runs away or skirmishes.  Unit C was within 1BW so it would get to shoot.  Also, though not explicitly mentioned, there is a unit of skirmishing cavalry (top right of the picture) that was also within 1BW and one of those files got to shoot as well!
Also one element of the unit next to unit B was within 1BW so it would get to shoot.

So on that charge direction, a total of 7 elements would get to shoot.  Ouch!  4 of them were skilled shooters (3 skilled, 1 in cantabrian).

Richard
 

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: "Revealed shooters"
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 07:35:56 AM »
Yes you have it.
By choosing that path of charge you expose to fire from the right hand TUG.
As Richard says...
Can't tell if its 6 or 7 shooters but small mercy if only 6.

Perhaps pick a different path of charge ....?

Si
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple