A couple of newbie questions

[Chazrael]

Evening all,

Finally managed to get a game of Pacto in with another newbie (Normans vs AngloSaxons). Have intermittantly played DBA/DBMM & Warmaster in the past but neither quite worked for me. Had a great time and lookign forward to next game but a couple of things came up that we were unsure of.

Assuming I have the cards can I issue multiple orders to a UG / block in 1 phase?
eg Advance with Wheel (M3) and then in a later order in the same movement phase turn on the spot (M9). (This may be a Warmaster flashback).

Do KaB tests from breaking units "chain"?
ie unit A breaks causing KaB tests on nearby units B & C. The damage from this test causes unit B to break. Does unit C have to take another KaB test?

What happens here in the attached picture?
Select Fyrd frontally engaged in combat with Milites from a previous turn (yes the Milites should have tried to break away but didn't).
Great Fyrd charge in flank and kill a base, we assumed that the milites would fight back in the charge phase even though they were already in combat mostly due to +4 for flank in charge combat.
Do the Great Fyrd shuffle left to stay in contact with Milites 1, follow through into flank of next Milites unit or something else? (Should they have shuffled left in the charge phase to better align?).

Thanks for the answers (and a excellent rule set).


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[Francis Small]

Welcome Chazrael! I'm sort of an oldie newbie - played the game sporadically over the last couple of years, but am trying to get serious about it.

1. Nope, generally can't do multiple moves in a turn. For example, if you charge and manage to destroy your opponent, you can't then move during the move phase, but you can charge and break-off in the same turn. Also note the option for a double move - M14. Check out Universal Rule #14 (Prompted action per turn) on p. 80 for what is and is not allowed.

2. Yes - KaB chain of doom applies. See 5.3 on p.170: ..."Any TuGs broken by these test themselves cause further tests."

3. Great question. I can't say I know for sure, but see p. 143 "Casualty Removal in Combat" #1.3. According to how I read that (roughly "if losing a base makes you break contact completely with a UG you must choose another base - owner decides"), the rear Milites 1 is not removed because you then break contact with the Greater Fyrd, and where's the fun in that? Instead Mr. Milite must remove either the rear rank of Milite 2 or Milite 3, their choice.

[lionheartrjc]

Welcome.

1.  A general cannot make multiple moves in the same PHASE.  A general can move in the charge phase and then move in the movement phase.  A UG can generally only make one prompted action in a phase but there are some exceptions (see p80), most notably expanding files in combat (MF1/2 moves). 

2. Yes.

3.  As FrancisSmall has indicated. If the Great Fyrd inflict a casualty, the base in contact is not removed, but another base removed instead.  This is because you do not remove a base if it would cause the UG to lose contact with the UG fighting it. 

Richard

[steads]

Rare though it is to disagree with Richard, in this case the base fighting the Great Fyrd is removed. This is because this is Pacto and the other rear rank bases are actually in different TUGs.

[lionheartrjc]

Whoops, I hadn't spotted that it was a Pacto game. 

p.s. I don't think that it is that uncommon for people to disagree with me! 

Richard

[Francis Small]

Well, at least I gave the right answer. Just happened to be for a different question, that's all. 

The real question is - does the greater fyrd shift left, advance, or sit in place? In this case I believe they just sit in place. There's no outcome move, because you haven't gotten an outcome on Milites 1.

Next turn they could charge the rear Milites2 base in the flank.

As a followup question, how could the GF attack the remaining Milites 1 base next turn if that's what they wanted to do? They can't charge them because they are in contact. But the rules for the other mechanisms on p132 for "Engaging in Melee When Already in Contact" are explicitly for front corner to front corner contact, and they are in front corner to rear corner contact. I don't think you can do an option to align in SP5.1 because you're not in combat. The only think I think the rules allow for is for them to back up (and break contact), then charge, but that doesn't seem right.

[steads]

As a followup question, how could the GF attack the remaining Milites 1 base next turn if that's what they wanted to do? They can't charge them because they are in contact. But the rules for the other mechanisms on p132 for "Engaging in Melee When Already in Contact" are explicitly for front corner to front corner contact, and they are in front corner to rear corner contact. I don't think you can do an option to align in SP5.1 because you're not in combat. The only think I think the rules allow for is for them to back up (and break contact), then charge, but that doesn't seem right.

I think you have identified a glitch. My suggestion is the 2.1 should be adjusted to read "..with an enemy corner." ie remove the requirement for it to be a front corner.

Over to Si

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Well back from a holiday and batteries recharged.
Welcome aboard first of all. An I always love an "over to Si".

What happens here in the attached picture?
Select Fyrd frontally engaged in combat with Milites from a previous turn (yes the Milites should have tried to break away but didn't).
Great Fyrd charge in flank and kill a base, we assumed that the milites would fight back in the charge phase even though they were already in combat mostly due to +4 for flank in charge combat.

First yes the Milites fight back in the charge phase - not very well but they do.

Do the Great Fyrd shuffle left to stay in contact with Milites 1, follow through into flank of next Milites unit or something else? (Should they have shuffled left in the charge phase to better align?).

In general they get to charge millets 2 in the flank so a very nice outcome. But yes there is a minor cliche in page 131. As Stephen rightly suggests it really should read any corner rather than front corner in 2.1.  I will add a carry to that effect. So yes the intent is you can instead use the same mechanisms to recreate a melee combat - but charging Milites 2 looks nice....

Keep enjoying and spreading the news

Si

[Chazrael]

Thanks for all the responses folks.

Got another game of PACTO lined up. Republican Romans vs Carthaginians this time.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Fantastic. A fine match up.
Check out Cannae on the CCC YouTube channel if you haven't seen it.

Si

[Chazrael]

Well, I've finished my second game of Pacto using the sample Republican Romans and Carthaginian lists from the website. Good fun again and we managed to get a historical plausible result, ie the Romans lost. (Those KaB tests for broken friends are really nasty for 1 base units!).

We managed to generate a few more questions mostly around SuG's.

• SuG Cavalry making way to clear a charge end up moving through friends (in turn sequence 2.1). Do these cause KaB tests as they would if they skirmish or run away?
• SuG charging TuG. Only allowed if TuG is wothin 1 base of broken ("finishing off move"). In Pacto you can have 1 base TuG (eg the Elephants & Triarii in the sample lists). Are these fair game for SuG's to charge straight away or do they need to be wounded first? This came about when some heroic velites charged an elephant to stop it flank charging some hastati (this went as well for the velites as you'd expect but did stop the Hastati being flank charged).
  
• Do charges target a unit or a direction? As an example Hastati declare a charge against some Slingers immediately in front of some Spearmen. The Slinger skirmish and then variable move away behind the Spearmen. Can the Hastati change charge target to the Spearmen?

Thanks in advance for the responses.

[Francis Small]

Well, I'm always happy to give a response - although still coming up that learning curve!

• Assuming the mounted SuG is not passing through a foot SuG, I don't believe that you can voluntarily move through. I found this section of the rules (9.3H Passing Through Friends) to be difficult to understand, but I eventually concluded that the intention was that voluntary passing through is only allowed as described in 9.3H5 - but the wording ("not allowed without causing a KaB test") leaves one thinking that you can pass through at the cost of a KaB test - but for prompted moves I think it's just not allowed at all. Any input from real players appreciated.
• I don't know of any special Pacto exceptions, so SuGs can charge any 1 base TuG.
• Ultimately a charge is marked with a direction, but you have to have a valid target that you would hit in that direction. When it comes time to charge, you can always charge in the original direction up to your charge distance even if you end up hitting "something else". Of course, if "a target of a charge" (which doesn't really have an air tight definition) moves, the rules allow you to change direction to end up closer to it than if you didn't change direction. (9.4L5 p132)

Hopefully the answers are mostly accurate, or at least mostly harmless.

[lionheartrjc]

Do charges target a unit or a direction? As an example Hastati declare a charge against some Slingers immediately in front of some Spearmen. The Slinger skirmish and then variable move away behind the Spearmen. Can the Hastati change charge target to the Spearmen?[/li][/list]

Thanks in advance for the responses.

When you declare a charge you have to indicate the direction.   You must charge in that direction, unless the charge target evades o.  In this situation you have the option of changing the direction of the charge to follow the evading unit (as per 9.4L5 on page 132).

Richard

[badhabum]

A mounted SUG may not move trough a friendly unit, at least not voluntarily except if the friendly unit is foot SK 

So if you have a screen of mounted SUG you must thinck about it and leave some space for those guys to get out of the way if need be.

For SUGs being able to charge one base units in PACTO I cannot answer as I usually play MAXIMUS but I am interested in the answer 

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Yes the needing to move SuGs out of the way is important.
It means you can't have skirmish cover for free and just charge through it.
You have to be more coordinated which is good both from a historical and game perspective.

Si