Generals

[Brew]

I guess, in my innocence as a new player, I read the rules and took them at face value. I don't quite get the confusion over that sentence. How can a permanently downgraded general count as a level above for combat (ie counting a downgraded LG, now TG, as +2)?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand why there is a lack of clarity.

[rayfredjohn]

I guess, in my innocence as a new player, I read the rules and took them at face value. I don't quite get the confusion over that sentence. How can a permanently downgraded general count as a level above for combat (ie counting a downgraded LG, now TG, as +2)?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand why there is a lack of clarity.

This came up in one of my games at the IWC in Brussels this weekend. We'll wait for Simon to comment.

[Rino]

Simon, any final input for us?

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Thanks all on reminding me of a tweak needed in the compendium draft :-)


Full Compendium extract

D:   DEAD, WOUNDED AND STUNNED GENERALS
1.   A general can be killed, wounded or stunned by a KaB test on a general (9.5B ). A KaB test is taken based on the general's current card allowance (see KaB table) when:
1.1. A general is with a UG that is broken  - by whatever means - while it is in combat.  This represents the general getting wrapped up in a rout and trying to escape with his bodyguards.
1.2. When a general is fighting in the front rank of a file that suffers a base loss (from a kill or a second wound).  There is no risk if a general is with a file but not fighting.

2.   A Skull kills a general:
o   The dead general's base is immediately removed and placed next to the camp, and nearby UGs take a KaB test.
o   A replacement general will take over in the turn after the general dies, with professional replacements taking over more quickly than instinctive ones.
•   Professional generals are replaced at the beginning of the movement phase (turn sequence SP4.1).
•   Instinctive generals are replaced in the end of turn phase (turn sequence SP6.2).
o   The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!
•   The replacement general is placed with any UG in their command.  If there are no UGs remaining in the command, then no replacement general appears and no cards are dealt.
•   Actions can still be prompted while waiting for a replacement general arrives but each actions requires an extra coloured card as everything is considered to be out of command.

3.   A X (sword&arrow) wounds a general:
•   If competent or better, he permanently drops down a card allowance (to a minimum of 2- cards) but keeps any cards he is holding and retains his status. 
•   So, a talented general becomes a 3-card talented general.  Note that KaB tests are taken based on current card allowance, so a legendary general can be wounded and then killed.
•   If already a 2-card general they lose all their cards as if stunned.

4.   An S stuns a general:
•    The general loses any cards he is holding immediately.

EXAMPLE: Tertius the Grey is charging with his Gallic barbarians with a YELLOW card saved to recover a wound later. Unfortunately, he is fighting in the front rank and the file he is fighting with suffers a base loss in charge combat. The opponent claims a KaB test against him and as he is a talented general rolls a GREEN dice. He rolls an X and wounds Tertius - he drops to a 3-card talented general for the rest of the game. In melee combat it happens again, and this time his opponent rolls a YELLOW dice as he is a 3-card general.  He get an S, so Tertius is stunned and loses his remaining cards immediately. Tertius is stumbling around with a scar and concussion and cannot recover a wound as he intended.

I would certainly hope that this confusion has been addressed in the new compendium.

A legendary general who is wounded is reduced to 4 cards.
A 4-card general (wounded legendary or a talented) who is wounded is reduced to 3 cards
A 3-card general (twice-wounded legendary, wounded talented or a competent) who is wounded is reduced to 2 cards.
A 2-card general (three-times wounded legendary, twice-wounded talented, wounded competent or a mediocre) loses their cards, but remains a 2-card general.

YES SPOT ON

Question for Simon - does a wounded legendary general fight at +2 or +1 in combat?  (I have may have answered this incorrectly yesterday when I was asked).

YES HE IS STILL LEGENDARY (and a bit cheesed odd too!)

Further question:   Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards.   I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum.  The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself.  (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).

NO.  NOW BENEFITING FROM HIS +2 INSTEAD.  ANYTHING THAT WAS TO DO WITH SETTING IT UP WELL WAS DONE BEFORE HE GOT IN A FIGHT.  I AM SURE CAESAR DID SO.

p.s.  Thanks to everyone taking part in the IWC yesterday.  The games seem to have been played in a very good spirit. A few players get a bit passionate when arguing about the rules - they need to remember that once the Umpire has ruled they need to move on.  Well done to Jacques for umpiring.

INDEED.  THERE IS NO PERFECT NAD UMPIRES ARE SERVANTS OF THE PLAYERS DOING EVERYONE A FAVOUR.  PASSION IS GOOD - CONTAINED SENSIBLY!  THANKS TO JACQUES FOR ORGANISING AND UMPIRING A FINE EVENT. 

[RobAustin]

I thought at one point there was discussion that a killed general also loses his command cards/chits. Was that never actually implemented? Stunned is worse that wounded for Mediocre!

[nikgaukroger]

Last line in section 3 of what Simon posted above.

[RobAustin]

Last line in section 3 of what Simon posted above.

Ah, thanks. I was looking for it to generally apply to getting wounded for all generals. But this makes sense.

[Jilu]

"•   Instinctive generals are replaced in the end of turn phase (turn sequence SP6.2)."

i suppose it is the end of the next turn.

So as i read it  legendary general keeps his +2 in combat until he is killed.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.

S

[rayfredjohn]

Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.

S

Above you make a contradictory statement;

"The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!"

[steads]

Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.

S

Above you make a contradictory statement;

"The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!"

Isn't this the difference between wounding and killing?

[rayfredjohn]

Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.

S

Above you make a contradictory statement;

"The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!"

Isn't this the difference between wounding and killing?

Ahhhh, yes. I think you're correct.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

It is indeed the different between being wounded and killed.
The team are willing to offer demonstrations if necessary. 

S

[rayfredjohn]

It is indeed the different between being wounded and killed.
The team are willing to offer demonstrations if necessary. 

S

To labour the point;

A Legendary General who has been wounded, has 4 cards but retains his +2 in combat AND his ability to command a block of 5 TuGs.

A Legendary who is wounded again has 3 cards but retains his +2 in combat AND his ability to command a block of 5 TuGs.

A Legendary General who is killed with a Skull in the KaB test, comes back with 4 cards, can only command a block 4 TuGs,  looses his +2 in combat. He becomes a Talented General for all game mechanics, including future KaB tests.

Please God I've got this right.

[daveparish]

Except that you can't straight kill a Legendary general (because it is a white dice), so you need to add;

A legendary general who has been wounded has four cards, further KABs rolled against him are on a green dice (while he is a 4-carder) ... and then your other points