Champa allies

Started by RogerW, November 26, 2019, 10:50:03 PM

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RogerW

Champa has been restricted and now not allowed Angkor Empire allies; yet the Angkor Empire is allowed Champa allies.

Another army condemned...

nikgaukroger

I don't have the knowledge to comment on the removal of the ally, but would point out that just because army A has army B allies it does not automatically follow that army B would be allowed army A allies.

If you think the removal is wrong it'd be good to say why.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

RogerW

The two regions were natural allies though as they shared a common religion when surrounded by hostile nations of different religions.

In the 8th Century A Cham Prince married a Khmer Princess.

Khmer and the Cham had had their differences over the centuries. They had coexisted in peace until around the 11th Cen­tury when it is believed that the Khmer tried to take control of Vi­jaya—now Quy Nhon—located halfway between Hue and Ho Chi Minh City. It was Champa's most im­portant maritime port at the time.

This led to nearly constant warfare until the 1220s. One Khmer faction would unite with another Cham kingdom to fight against other Khmer factions and Cham kingdoms, as shown on wall carvings of the Bayon temple at Ang­kor.

According to both Khmer and Cham inscriptions, King Jayavar­man VII spent a great deal of time in Vijaya probably in the 1160s. Cham texts add that he was accompanied by Cham troops when he returned to Ang­kor and secured the throne in 1178.

It may have been a Cham kingdom hostile to King Jayavarman's Cham allies that attacked Angkor shortly after, though there was never a huge conquest of Angkor by the Cham.

Following the Cham attack, Ang­kor was left strong enough for King Jayavarman VII to fight along­side Cham people against some Cham rulers as stated in Cham inscriptions of the 1180s and 1190s, he said.

I would say if it is allowed one way should be allowed the other due to the nature of regional conflict and temporary alliances, especially if there was an external threat to the people and their religion from outside forces.

Robin

Makes sence to me. Is it RJC that is doing the list ?

Simon Meg-Meister

Richard is always the Guardian of the Sacred Lists.

S
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple

lionheartrjc

I am yet to be convinced.

Marrying a princess does not constitute evidence that they allied and fought together against a common opponent.

I would like to know more about the "one Khmer faction uniting with another Cham kingdom to fight against other Khmer factions and Cham kingdoms".  This interpretation of the Bayon temple reliefs is not accepted as far as I am aware.

The Cham troops that accompanied Jayavar­man VII were probably vassals or mercenaries, not allies.

I am not aware of the Cham inscriptions dated to 1180's / 90's.  Can you provide a reference.

Many thanks.

Richard

RogerW

Well, very difficult because of language to have original work to go from but "Medieval Khmer Society: The Life and Times of Jayavarman VII" by Paul Nietupski is very good and goes on about the fractious nature of the area and alliances between Cham and Khmer through the period.

The little available biodata about Jayavarman VII shows that he was the son of King Dharaṇīndravarman II (r. 1150–1160) and his wife Queen Śrī Jayarājacūḍāmaṇi. Jayavarman VII married Jayarājadevī, and after her death he married her sister Indradevī. Little else is known of Jayavarman VII's childhood and youth, but it is clear that he was in a privileged class, relatively wealthy, with political connections likely through his clan, and with significant military skill. It appears that he grew up in the Khmer empire, but spent much time in neighbouring Cham (Vietnam) lands. For their part, the Cham were at least as fragmented as the Khmer; Vickery has shown that like the Khmer there were several, if not many, small Cham kingdoms, some of which allied among themselves, with their Khmer neighbors, and evidently mercenary groups, in agreements made and broken over years for expected military, political, trade, and territorial advantages. This was the normal political process in medieval Cambodia. The scenario was one of running battles between different allied Khmer and Cham clan groups, who could and did shift alliances over time.

After Jayavarman VII's father passed away in 1160 and his clan member Yasovarman claimed the throne, Jayavarman VII (then about forty years old) served in the court. But around 1166, Tribhuvanādityavarman, evidently a court official, took the throne. Jayavarman VII left the Khmer capital, possibly going to Preah Khan in Kompong Svay (about 100 km east of Angkor) or perhaps to a Cham kingdom.5 For the next decade, until about 1177, there were more alliances and more battles between groups of allied Khmer and Cham. It is often said that in 1177 there was a unified Cham invasion of Khmer territory. Vickery and others refute this, and Vickery argues further that in this decade (1166–1176) the Khmer were in political turmoil and there was a series of raids and battles between the Cham and Khmer.6 He suggests that "... the real conquest of Angkor was by Jayavarman VII and his Cham allies–probably in the 1170s, at least before 1181–and that the subordination of central and southern Champa to him dated from that time."

In regard to the use of the wording mercenary groups, IMHO it refers to a full ally contingent fighting for gain rather than the western idea of mercenaries integral to a force.