I like the changes. Particularly the new prompt through fire. Hopefully horse archers now actually have chance to slow mounted and get extra shots in.

Removal of magic cav friendly uneven terrain a positive. A compremise could be only affects close so loose foot are not disadvantage Vs mounted?

The keils at 12s fits nicely with ReG allowing cross over of armies, but you do need them to count 2 tugs so break points can get to a reasonable level.

Quote from: rayfredjohn on August 14, 2019, 10:15:42 AM
I think the new prompting through fire is too harsh.  Had anyone actually play tested this?

Give it a go Ray. Felt good to me in may two test games.
Need to make sure you don't charge from max range which is good.
Gave HA a little bit more time and space to work with.

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 12, 2019, 04:49:32 PM

PBS
2. Professional armies get 7/6/5/4 for AC grade, Instinctive 5/4/3/2 with scouting included as today.  No benefit for Subs.  Simpler and more balanced advantage for Professionals. Points adjusted up 100 for instinctive generals as Pro one lose their boost for PBS.

This seems like a rough deal for Instinctive Generals: You get fewer PBS cards and your army loses 400 points.
If you are removing an ability from Professional Generals why not make them cheaper rather than Instinctive Generals more expensive.
That might also help address the "smallness" of high quality armies.

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 12:35:34 PM

Quote from: rayfredjohn on August 14, 2019, 10:15:42 AM
I think the new prompting through fire is too harsh.  Had anyone actually play tested this?

Give it a go Ray. Felt good to me in may two test games.
Need to make sure you don't charge from max range which is good.
Gave HA a little bit more time and space to work with.

I feel a disturbance in the force. In isolation I would predict that this will unbalance the game too much. However, the elimination of "cav tastic" terrain might bring order to the universe.

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 12:35:34 PM

Quote from: rayfredjohn on August 14, 2019, 10:15:42 AM
I think the new prompting through fire is too harsh.  Had anyone actually play tested this?

Give it a go Ray. Felt good to me in may two test games.
Need to make sure you don't charge from max range which is good.
Gave HA a little bit more time and space to work with.

Currently it is pretty simple to prompt through fire, I'd suggest almost trivial to anyone who applies a little thought - the change will bring it a bit more into play and should, IMO, provide the little extra balance needed in Crusader:Muslim battles which is missing at present (due to speed increase of knights in 2019).

Quote from: steads on August 14, 2019, 12:54:08 PM

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 12, 2019, 04:49:32 PM

PBS
2. Professional armies get 7/6/5/4 for AC grade, Instinctive 5/4/3/2 with scouting included as today.  No benefit for Subs.  Simpler and more balanced advantage for Professionals. Points adjusted up 100 for instinctive generals as Pro one lose their boost for PBS.

This seems like a rough deal for Instinctive Generals: You get fewer PBS cards and your army loses 400 points.
If you are removing an ability from Professional Generals why not make them cheaper rather than Instinctive Generals more expensive.
Might also help address the "smallness" of high quality armies.

Initially making Professional cheaper was the idea, however, on reflection the idea that making Instinctive a little more expensive was preferable partly to try and mitigate against the very common 2 x Talented, 2 x Competent seen in large instinctive led armies - also being mindful that large armies are seen my some as an issue.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 01:14:27 PM

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 12:35:34 PM

Quote from: rayfredjohn on August 14, 2019, 10:15:42 AM
I think the new prompting through fire is too harsh.  Had anyone actually play tested this?

Give it a go Ray. Felt good to me in may two test games.
Need to make sure you don't charge from max range which is good.
Gave HA a little bit more time and space to work with.

Currently it is pretty simple to prompt through fire, I'd suggest almost trivial to anyone who applies a little thought - the change will bring it a bit more into play and should, IMO, provide the little extra balance needed in Crusader:Muslim battles which is missing at present (due to speed increase of knights in 2019).

Is using a change to a universal rule the way to solve the problem that knights move as quickly as horse archers?  Hmmmm, probably not.

That is just a particularly pertinent example and not the root cause reason.

I'd add, for example, that my games this weekend with Eddy IV show that prompting through fire is just a bit too easy at present - the only cases where a prompt through fire could not be made when a player wanted were when the general was not in range; I'd suggest that as cards were not the issue it supports the idea that it is too easy.

Well with this and horse archers becoming cheaper, I'm sure we will see more shooty, horsey types.

Might change this trend towards big stodgy foot armies. Who knows.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 01:40:38 PM
That is just a particularly pertinent example and not the root cause reason.

I'd add, for example, that my games this weekend with Eddy IV show that prompting through fire is just a bit too easy at present - the only cases where a prompt through fire could not be made when a player wanted were when the general was not in range; I'd suggest that as cards were not the issue it supports the idea that it is too easy.

I agree that prompting through fire is just too easy at present.

Quote from: nigelemsen on August 14, 2019, 12:26:43 PM
The keils at 12s fits nicely with ReG allowing cross over of armies, but you do need them to count 2 tugs so break points can get to a reasonable level.

Totally agree - and some armies using such units from being too small.

Most of these occur in Italian Wars or similar times.  Only 8 bases TUGs with compulsary kiel - same period : eg Trastamara Spanish

Quote from: steads on August 14, 2019, 12:54:08 PM

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 12, 2019, 04:49:32 PM

PBS
2. Professional armies get 7/6/5/4 for AC grade, Instinctive 5/4/3/2 with scouting included as today.  No benefit for Subs.  Simpler and more balanced advantage for Professionals. Points adjusted up 100 for instinctive generals as Pro one lose their boost for PBS.

This seems like a rough deal for Instinctive Generals: You get fewer PBS cards and your army loses 400 points.
If you are removing an ability from Professional Generals why not make them cheaper rather than Instinctive Generals more expensive.
That might also help address the "smallness" of high quality armies.

Its a net + for Instinctive vs. 2019. There is +2 in total to those numbers I forgot to add in.  Now if scouting is average you get 6 with a Talented Instinctive vs 8 for a Talented professional when it was nine.

We could do either on the points but felt instinctive up a bit would create more variety of choices for those armies.

Quote from: rayfredjohn on August 14, 2019, 01:33:06 PM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 01:14:27 PM

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 12:35:34 PM

Quote from: rayfredjohn on August 14, 2019, 10:15:42 AM
I think the new prompting through fire is too harsh.  Had anyone actually play tested this?

Give it a go Ray. Felt good to me in may two test games.
Need to make sure you don't charge from max range which is good.
Gave HA a little bit more time and space to work with.

Currently it is pretty simple to prompt through fire, I'd suggest almost trivial to anyone who applies a little thought - the change will bring it a bit more into play and should, IMO, provide the little extra balance needed in Crusader:Muslim battles which is missing at present (due to speed increase of knights in 2019).

Is using a change to a universal rule the way to solve the problem that knights move as quickly as horse archers?  Hmmmm, probably not.

That is a side effect.  The reason is that all missile fire hasn't quite yet reached its required effect in slowing.  So what it will do is give mass bow armies a chance and nudge HA armies a bit more into the mainstream.

Quote from: IanN on August 14, 2019, 03:34:51 PM

Quote from: nigelemsen on August 14, 2019, 12:26:43 PM
The keils at 12s fits nicely with ReG allowing cross over of armies, but you do need them to count 2 tugs so break points can get to a reasonable level.

Totally agree - and some armies using such units from being too small.

Most of these occur in Italian Wars or similar times.  Only 8 bases TUGs with compulsary kiel - same period : eg Trastamara Spanish

I suspect the plan is to allow a single 12 base Keil in these armies or 8s without Keil.

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 07:31:10 AM

Quote from: Rino on August 14, 2019, 01:59:18 AM

Quote from: Rino on August 12, 2019, 10:35:01 PM
On uneven, it was use to give an edge to mounted on infantry.

What would be the options now for a changing lancer against long spear army going table wide?
Going through the woods?

Hard time for the lancers.

Simon, can you revert to us on this one?
Thx.

Well you are are right there is nowhere to "hide" now but that will encourage results. Most people didn't like uneven so have bowed to the big majority (even though in the minority myself on this one).

FWIW my plan in such a match up would be to put down a mix of rough going and deep hills.  Plan as follows:

• Hills with the +1 even things up nicely with Superior CL.  You then have a good chance with a break off.  Hills need to be enough to allow you to break off 2BW and charge in again.
  Ride some lancers through the rough if not covered.  You can fight in it perfectly well as the spears lose their factors and the cat keep Sup and M Expert.
  Use mobility to fight on a narrow frontage only with a second wave of charges.

And we don't see many hoplite armies so maybe this will encourage a few.

Si

Thx for the feedback.

Should the one fearing lancers having most say then they could have been contented by setting simply a limitation to the number of uneven that could be placed on the table (a kind of FOG approach)
As it is now it create the following

1- the defender in plain could take a open open so no terrain at all
2- infantry long spear army have no element where they fear the lancers. In open they are happy, if rough or difficult they have the same factor as the cav lancer...
3- the only good is that the open open prevent ending up with overloaded table. But last time I saw it it was a Persian that saturated the table against a galate...

There are no reason for the lancers to be suicidal, finishing the game and winning will take the full 3h.

The same effect could have been achieved with only adding open open and without canceling uneven.