This appears to be one of those issues that just hasn't really been looked at.
The basic cost for Kiel is 5 points.  Since it protects from flank charges this seems too low.
No plans to change it for 2026, but I think this is likely to change for 2027. 

Advance warning.

If you can make a case for Kiel only being five points, let us hear it!

Richard

when you are paying between 1200 and 1800 per block of 12 bases already, with an army tug count of about 7, i think it will make those lists unplayable as even a 10 point cost per base would make the recent standard UK competition late Swiss lists need to find 300 more points, essentially forcing it into a 4 block Kiel list or a keep it at a five tug kiel but only tug count of 6. Essentially making the army breakable without ever fighting the pikes (three non pike tugs and the camp). Similar applies to any list using Landsknechts, they are already high cost low tug counts and often sub optimal because of it. We dont see many Maximillian Germans winning, despite the option for 5 Kiels of pike.

Keil's will now be pinned in place by the amendment/clarification to breaking off.
The rear remains vulnerable.

I think the balance is right in points already. I'd suggest its more a synergy of fleet of foot with superior and Keil that causes the problem and skews the perception. It also requires some skill and luck to win with such armies as it is.

edit- in fact I'd rather see the previously mooted option of  fleet of foot pike blocks charging only at the standard close order foot speed but moving at skirmisher distances. That removes much of the issue.

Yeah, even at 5pts/base, Keil costs 60pts/tug and requires deploying the TUG narrower than necessary (under the revised pike rules) to function.
It's probably fine.

I can say this from a Magna point of view, since in our community we play only Magna.

Since blocks are only of 6 bases in Magna, and you have little space to move between them, keil being only 5 points makes it very overpowered.
 
In late medieval, armies of melee cavalry are completely not viable in Magna as there's no chance of breaking pikes, especially those with keils. Our late medieval tournaments are right now pikes versus pikes. For the period I enjoy the most from a historical point of view, it's the one I enjoy the least right now from a gameplay point of view.


I also follow the results of maximus tournaments in UK (posted by Nik Gaukroger), and it seems that LsP/Pike lists seem to win the most tournaments overall. With that being said, I don't understand why long spears have gotten such a big buff.

Quote from: madmonkey on October 27, 2025, 09:52:38 PMI also follow the results of maximus tournaments in UK (posted by Nik Gaukroger), and it seems that LsP/Pike lists seem to win the most tournaments overall.

This piqued my interest so had a quick look. I reckon from c. 40 comps (leaving out Campaign as that is a bit odd) 4 comps were won by what I'd call LSp armies and 2 by Pk armies.

OK classification is a bit subjective but I went for where the majority of the "battle winning" troops were of a type.

So I don't think we're seeing LSP + Pk based armies dominating. What I'd call "mixed" won 13 for example. All a bit subjective really.

So out of 40 competitions, 19 of them were won by lists including LsP and Pikes, despite these weapons being available in less than 10% of the armies.

Quote from: madmonkey on October 28, 2025, 02:04:05 PMSo out of 40 competitions, 19 of them were won by lists including LsP and Pikes, despite these weapons being available in less than 10% of the armies.

I have not said that. You appear to have assumed, incorrectly, that armies I'd call "mixed" include troops with Pk or LSp to get to 19.

Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 27, 2025, 12:37:50 PMI'd suggest its more a synergy of fleet of foot with superior and Keil that causes the problem and skews the perception.

I think there is something in this. You see the same with the Superior, Fleet of Foot Almogavars - the reduction in points for being Unprotected is quite a lot and makes the troops very good value for money. For the Swiss keil just adds to the package.

FWIW I've never found LSp infantry particularly cost-effective. Pikes seem significantly better value.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 28, 2025, 02:37:24 PM

Quote from: madmonkey on October 28, 2025, 02:04:05 PMSo out of 40 competitions, 19 of them were won by lists including LsP and Pikes, despite these weapons being available in less than 10% of the armies.

I have not said that. You appear to have assumed, incorrectly, that armies I'd call "mixed" include troops with Pk or LSp to get to 19.

I checked for 2025:
Out of 13 tournaments: 5 winning lists included LsP and 1 included Pikes.

I fully agree with the change to give the option to make TuGs of LsP include more bases. But I don't see the reason to decrease their point cost.

I think we're looking at things in a bit of a different way. I'd not include any army that just included LSp/Pk as "LsP/Pike lists" but only those whose main arm is those. So for example if a Han army that includes a single LSp unit wins a comp I'd not include that.

Anyway, this is all rather derailing the keil cost point of the original post so I'll leave army types at that 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 28, 2025, 02:43:15 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 27, 2025, 12:37:50 PMI'd suggest its more a synergy of fleet of foot with superior and Keil that causes the problem and skews the perception.

I think there is something in this. You see the same with the Superior, Fleet of Foot Almogavars - the reduction in points for being Unprotected is quite a lot and makes the troops very good value for money. For the Swiss keil just adds to the package.

So I guess I'm asking if Superior, Unprotected is too cheap.

Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 27, 2025, 12:37:50 PMwhen you are paying between 1200 and 1800 per block of 12 bases already, with an army tug count of about 7, i think it will make those lists unplayable as even a 10 point cost per base would make the recent standard UK competition late Swiss lists need to find 300 more points, essentially forcing it into a 4 block Kiel list or a keep it at a five tug kiel but only tug count of 6. Essentially making the army breakable without ever fighting the pikes (three non pike tugs and the camp). Similar applies to any list using Landsknechts, they are already high cost low tug counts and often sub optimal because of it. We dont see many Maximillian Germans winning, despite the option for 5 Kiels of pike.

Keil's will now be pinned in place by the amendment/clarification to breaking off.
The rear remains vulnerable.

I think the balance is right in points already. I'd suggest its more a synergy of fleet of foot with superior and Keil that causes the problem and skews the perception. It also requires some skill and luck to win with such armies as it is.

edit- in fact I'd rather see the previously mooted option of  fleet of foot pike blocks charging only at the standard close order foot speed but moving at skirmisher distances. That removes much of the issue.

Well a Superior, Unprotected, Fleet of Foot, Keil, Shove UG of 12 bases is 1210 points (102 points per base) currently.

An increase of the base cost of Keil to 20 points instead of the current 5 points would allow 3 Superior and 2 Average compared to the current 5 Superior for the same points cost.

Richard

p.s.  Please keep the discussion to Keils.  If you want to discuss something else, start a new topic.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 28, 2025, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 27, 2025, 12:37:50 PMwhen you are paying between 1200 and 1800 per block of 12 bases already, with an army tug count of about 7, i think it will make those lists unplayable as even a 10 point cost per base would make the recent standard UK competition late Swiss lists need to find 300 more points, essentially forcing it into a 4 block Kiel list or a keep it at a five tug kiel but only tug count of 6. Essentially making the army breakable without ever fighting the pikes (three non pike tugs and the camp). Similar applies to any list using Landsknechts, they are already high cost low tug counts and often sub optimal because of it. We dont see many Maximillian Germans winning, despite the option for 5 Kiels of pike.

Keil's will now be pinned in place by the amendment/clarification to breaking off.
The rear remains vulnerable.

I think the balance is right in points already. I'd suggest its more a synergy of fleet of foot with superior and Keil that causes the problem and skews the perception. It also requires some skill and luck to win with such armies as it is.

edit- in fact I'd rather see the previously mooted option of  fleet of foot pike blocks charging only at the standard close order foot speed but moving at skirmisher distances. That removes much of the issue.

Well a Superior, Unprotected, Fleet of Foot, Keil, Shove UG of 12 bases is 1210 points (102 points per base) currently.

An increase of the base cost of Keil to 20 points instead of the current 5 points would allow 3 Superior and 2 Average compared to the current 5 Superior for the same points cost.

Richard

p.s.  Please keep the discussion to Keils.  If you want to discuss something else, start a new topic.

So are you saying you have no problems with average, unprotected, kiels but five superior, unprotected kiels is too much? and so should be made practically impossible?

If average keils aren't a problem then why are they too cheap? I repeat we do not see massed average keils being used with much success, despite them having the same mechanism as superior versions. Nor do we see superior, protected Swiss kielsbhaving much success.

To bring up non-UK tournaments, Kiel-based armies have generally done quite poorly in my region's tournaments on the occasions they've been used.

(Maximilian German won one of three games, but lost badly to Sohei and Classical Indian. I didn't get the results recorded from the mostly-average late Swiss army which was run, but it also lost at least half of its games.
By comparison, Macadonian-style armies tend to perform generally pretty alright in our tournaments, so take that as you will.)