The title is a quote from another topic.

My question is: what kind of armies do work?  Because I haven't fond one yet.

The winning list of Attack 2025 ?

I usd a 7 TUG Nike army and it worked but that was 2016 to 2018 . It also will depend on the player and on the theme . In an open theme it's much more difficult to find such an army .

Winner of last year's Skullrollers?

https://gamer-at-the-end-of-time.blogspot.com/2024/10/skullrollers-2024-lists.html

Or the almost the same 2nd place at Britcon last year?

https://gamer-at-the-end-of-time.blogspot.com/2024/08/britcon-2024-lists.html

Quote from: Princeps on October 13, 2025, 09:25:46 AMThe winning list of Attack 2025 ?

and mine from Warfare 2022 warfare 2022

So 7 TUG elite armies do work, provided they are cataphracts.

Failing that, wall to wall pikes.

Quote from: LawrenceG on October 14, 2025, 11:07:47 AMSo 7 TUG elite armies do work, provided they are cataphracts.

Failing that, wall to wall pikes.

it works best for those style of armies. Its not impossible with others. Fundamentally the small tug count means you are overly impacted by the whim of the dice gods and missile fire unless, like Sassanids, you mitigate it by a minus for armour or like Swiss can absorb damage.

You may find more classical pike armies become viable at 7 Tug's with Phalanxes being allowed in 12's

So how do you go about designing an army that isn't 7 TUGS but still works?

Quote from: LawrenceG on October 14, 2025, 01:31:38 PMSo how do you go about designing an army that isn't 7 TUGS but still works?

boiling it down to the question 'how do you win with it, what are its strengths and weaknesses'

wrote this ages ago about the thought processes behind an army I ran at a tournament which ended up 4th out of 32, Early Russian

There is designing an army, but ultimately there is using the army you have designed effectively.  I think a lot of people don't really understand the second bit. They think with the perfect design they will win, but it doesn't work that way.  A good player with a poor army usually beats a poor player with a good army.

A seven TuG army (unless it has masses of skirmishers) will be very unforgiving.  I have used a three TuG army (Parthian) and achieved a top-four placing, but you really have to be careful before you commit your TuGs!  Once you go above eleven TuGs then it is more a question of how to make the numbers count. The danger is you end up fighting with only a fraction of your army and even though you can lose more TuGs, it is hard to achieve a triumph.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 14, 2025, 04:53:10 PMThere is designing an army, but ultimately there is using the army you have designed effectively.  I think a lot of people don't really understand the second bit. They think with the perfect design they will win, but it doesn't work that way.  A good player with a poor army usually beats a poor player with a good army.

This is spot on. I'd add that for most players we also have styles of armies that suit us better than others and that we will generally do better with those which reinforces that just copying a successful list is no guarantee of better performance.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 20, 2025, 09:29:53 AM

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 14, 2025, 04:53:10 PMThere is designing an army, but ultimately there is using the army you have designed effectively.  I think a lot of people don't really understand the second bit. They think with the perfect design they will win, but it doesn't work that way.  A good player with a poor army usually beats a poor player with a good army.

This is spot on. I'd add that for most players we also have styles of armies that suit us better than others and that we will generally do better with those which reinforces that just copying a successful list is no guarantee of better performance.

And then were the dice of doom...

Some days the dice are just out together you ...