Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 02, 2025, 06:48:29 AM

Quote from: SteveO on September 02, 2025, 12:51:12 AMI don't understand how adjusting the claims to make hoplites better against foot and worse against mounted (in combat) better reflects hoplites.

Hoplites needed a boost against infantry. They were the dominant infantry vs infantry troops of their era (and geography) and the existing rules do not quite get that right in our view. Likewise the current rules make them something of anti-cavalry specialists which was most certainly not their role - although like any competent heavy infantry of their time they were pretty resistant to their contemporary cavalry opponents frontally by dint of being competent heavy infantry.

The changes aim to improve the former whilst keeping the latter but making it more historical by not having the "anti-cavalry specialist" factor. Hoplites as "Spear" should not fear cavalry they faced frontally charging them under the proposed changes (other than, maybe, Alexander led Agema).

But looking at history, hoplites also had no issue fighting in rough going and certainly with accounts like plataea, could integrate helots/light troops to provide missile support. Does this mean we're going to see flexible spear hoplites with attached sugs being a thing?

Quote from: MrSki on September 17, 2025, 11:08:33 AMBut looking at history, hoplites also had no issue fighting in rough going and certainly with accounts like plataea, could integrate helots/light troops to provide missile support. Does this mean we're going to see flexible spear hoplites with attached sugs being a thing?

The early-ish hoplite question is quite a vexed one in academia, although I think at present the balance is with the "orthodox" view as opposed to the "heretical" view. MeG has certainly plumped for orthodoxy in classification - but I guess if you wanted to you could dig out your Hans van Wees, etc. and start a discussion on it, but I don't think it'd change classification in the short term.

Quote from: MrSki on September 17, 2025, 11:08:33 AMBut looking at history, hoplites also had no issue fighting in rough going and certainly with accounts like plataea, could integrate helots/light troops to provide missile support. Does this mean we're going to see flexible spear hoplites with attached sugs being a thing?

No.

"Rough going" is a tricky concept.  Almost no battlefield was entirely without obstacles. An exception would be when Xerxes flattened the ground before Arbela/Gaugamela.  All troops could cope with most "open ground", even phalangites. (The syntagma structure of a phalanx was important in this regard - a factor often overlooked).  Clearly the ground could become more difficult to the point at which peltasts could defeat hoplites (think Spartans at Sphacteria in 425 BCE).

QuoteIn melee If in 2+ ranks, +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch, +1 vs others; if in 1 rank +1 vs foot cancelled by ME.

On the QRS the last part has been omitted : if in 1 rank +1 vs foot cancelled by ME

Has it on the one I downloaded.



Are you perhaps looking at Charge Combat where ME does not apply so cannot be cancelled?

I followed this link : https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/meg/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MeG-2026-Combat-Table.pdf

and something is missing as I could not put a picture here I sent it on whatsapp

The link goes to the correct document.

From the picture you sent me you are looking at the Charge Combat table and not the Melee Combat table.

So, I must have missed this elsewhere: which of the hoplites' common historical opponents (sans melee expert) is their existing classification not cutting it against?

Longspear+Shield Cover has excellent matchups against various generic hillfolk and Achaemenid sparabara, and the proposed special Dory weapon doesn't help against Romans, proper Thracians, or elephants.
(Besides, longspears now actually model the vulnerable right side of a hoplite formation, encouraging the historically typical deployment of these troops in unified block)

Should the Bahrain Qarmatian Long Spear armed Infantry be considered for the new Spear category ?

Quote from: Kokor Hekkus on September 19, 2025, 09:21:48 PMShould the Bahrain Qarmatian Long Spear armed Infantry be considered for the new Spear category ?

I don't think so.

A Spear armed Tug fighting in Melee against a non-ME foot Tug gets +1 if in two ranks and +1 if in one rank. Does this mean you can take the second rank base and move it to another file (eg overlap) because it is not contributing to the fight?

Quote from: daveparish on September 20, 2025, 09:36:22 AMA Spear armed Tug fighting in Melee against a non-ME foot Tug gets +1 if in two ranks and +1 if in one rank. Does this mean you can take the second rank base and move it to another file (eg overlap) because it is not contributing to the fight?

No.  You can move a third rank but not a second rank.  With Pikes you can move a fourth rank but not a third rank.

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 20, 2025, 10:17:43 AMNo.  You can move a third rank but not a second rank.  With Pikes you can move a fourth rank but not a third rank.

That has to be an explicit rule, though. The reason 3rd rank pike can't move is they are contributing a +1. That's not the case for 2nd rank spear against foot ( non ME).

Quote from: LawrenceG on September 23, 2025, 10:18:30 AM

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 20, 2025, 10:17:43 AMNo.  You can move a third rank but not a second rank.  With Pikes you can move a fourth rank but not a third rank.

That has to be an explicit rule, though. The reason 3rd rank pike can't move is they are contributing a +1. That's not the case for 2nd rank spear against foot ( non ME).

So PA fighting mounted may deploy the second rank as it does not contribute to the factors, but in the case of spears fighting infantry it may not be so because of  it's another case . KISS please KISS special cases here and there will not help . I would councel to allow moving the second rank as a simplification ans standardisation

On reflection I would prefer to keep things simple, so Spear fighting non-ME can move a second rank, as it is not contributing.  Carries its own risk as if the remaining single base is killed then the supporting file rule can kick in in the following turn.

Richard