I have an alternative suggestion that may achieve the desired effect. What if scythed chariots (and maybe expendables in general) have to be attached to a TuG at the start of the game. From there they operate like a skirmisher being dragged by the other unit. This way they can't be held in reserve unless the player is willing to commit another unit to doing the same job.

Or mandate a CAB test on any unit that has a "friendly" scythed chariot behind it.

Quote from: Manzikert on September 17, 2025, 05:29:19 AMI have an alternative suggestion that may achieve the desired effect. What if scythed chariots (and maybe expendables in general) have to be attached to a TuG at the start of the game. From there they operate like a skirmisher being dragged by the other unit. This way they can't be held in reserve unless the player is willing to commit another unit to doing the same job.

But scythed chariots were never held in reserve. They always led an attack.
As indicated elsewhere, they weren't always the first into the attack but all the other suggestions we looked at had loopholes that competition players would exploit.  The proposed amendment has the virtue of simplicity.
The other possibility would be "At the end of any turn in which another friendly UG is closer to enemy rear table edge than the scythed chariots and within 10 BW, the scythed chariot unit is withdrawn and removed from the table." 

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 17, 2025, 10:33:52 AM

Quote from: Manzikert on September 17, 2025, 05:29:19 AMI have an alternative suggestion that may achieve the desired effect. What if scythed chariots (and maybe expendables in general) have to be attached to a TuG at the start of the game. From there they operate like a skirmisher being dragged by the other unit. This way they can't be held in reserve unless the player is willing to commit another unit to doing the same job.

But scythed chariots were never held in reserve. They always led an attack.
As indicated elsewhere, they weren't always the first into the attack but all the other suggestions we looked at had loopholes that competition players would exploit.  The proposed amendment has the virtue of simplicity.
The other possibility would be "At the end of any turn in which another friendly UG is closer to enemy rear table edge than the scythed chariots and within 10 BW, the scythed chariot unit is withdrawn and removed from the table." 

This is much better

Another suggestion. If a TuG breaks within X base units of a scythed chariot (and again maybe extend to all expendables) they're picked up. X could be the whole table if you want to force scythed chariots to be aggressive, or limit it to 10 or so if you want it to only apply to their portion of the battlefield.

Quote from: Manzikert on September 17, 2025, 04:51:33 PMAnother suggestion. If a TuG breaks within X base units of a scythed chariot (and again maybe extend to all expendables) they're picked up. X could be the whole table if you want to force scythed chariots to be aggressive, or limit it to 10 or so if you want it to only apply to their portion of the battlefield.

We want the scythed chariots to lead the attack.  This doesn't really do that.

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 17, 2025, 04:59:34 PM

Quote from: Manzikert on September 17, 2025, 04:51:33 PMAnother suggestion. If a TuG breaks within X base units of a scythed chariot (and again maybe extend to all expendables) they're picked up. X could be the whole table if you want to force scythed chariots to be aggressive, or limit it to 10 or so if you want it to only apply to their portion of the battlefield.

We want the scythed chariots to lead the attack.  This doesn't really do that.

Richard

It means that a Scythed chariot can't be held in reserve since they have to be committed before a TuG is lost. And any significant delay in using them risks losing them altogether.

I suppose you could just cut out all the complexity and say 'expendables are removed at the end of the 2nd turn'. That's it, double move them forward and charge because they're gone regardless.

Quote from: Manzikert on September 18, 2025, 06:53:10 AMIt means that a Scythed chariot can't be held in reserve

Which they weren't.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 18, 2025, 07:42:07 AM

Quote from: Manzikert on September 18, 2025, 06:53:10 AMIt means that a Scythed chariot can't be held in reserve

Which they weren't.

That was the intention of the proposal. They can't be held in reserve because they're gone as soon as you lose a TuG.

I vote against that change with the backing of the amnias river battle as explained in page 1.

Seems that Cyrus the great is holding scythe chariot in reserve as well

Source xenophon - cyropaedia

The Battle of Thymbra.  Don't agree that the account suggests that the chariots were held in reserve.  Can make the argument that the camels were sent forward first - perhaps more than 10BW away.

We are still in a situation where we do not want scythed chariots to be used as some sort of mobile reserve which is what is happening.

Richard

What about 4501 Goryeo Korean Battle Chariot

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 20, 2025, 07:01:06 AMThe Battle of Thymbra.  Don't agree that the account suggests that the chariots were held in reserve.  Can make the argument that the camels were sent forward first - perhaps more than 10BW away.

We are still in a situation where we do not want scythed chariots to be used as some sort of mobile reserve which is what is happening.

Richard

Reading the xenophon account
1) Cyrus sent the cav
2) Cyrus sent the infantry
3) Cyrus sent the camel
4) Cyrus sent the scythed chariot

In that order.

If you want to represent them this way, take them as Persian chariots, not as the Expendables.