Can be viewed from this shared folder.  Draft 2026 List Sets.

Please note that these are draft and subject to change.  The changes reflect the proposed amendements.  As of today, I have only completed the chariot and classical era lists.  Others will follow.

15/9/25: Added the 3 American list sets.

Given the ongoing discussion about hoplites, is the deletion of the melee expert option for earlier Spartiates a deliberate change or an oversight? IIRC it was not mentioned in the discussion as being up for removal.

Deliberate.  Hippeis now have the option of fanatic (think Themopylae).  Also Spartiates can now be in 9s.  All balances out.

Richard

Must say I don't think allowing 2 units of hippeis is right and restricting the from 450 CE ones to 4 bases when they cannot be Fanatic likewise.

I'd go back to allowing a single unit of 6 in both time ranges and for the pre-450 BCE ones have them restricted to a single 4 base unit if Fanatic is chosen.

I would support 6, fanatics or not .

Ok my feeling is that having deleted the ME is very bad for the spartans who before could face roman legions now they will loose as most players do use SUP, ME legions ...ok I'll flee

Let me explain how I see it : Hannibal's veteran, SUP, LS can face roman veterans on near parity . The many SUP romans would have +1 at impact and melee would be equal if the lybian veterans stay 2 rank deep . Now with the change, same price 140 points, but the ME romans are now better they have the upperhand and AV romans are on parity at impact and melee ...so you pay the same points as before for a less efficient TUG so yes I am unhappy . Same goes for the spartans . Some armies might get to the shelves as it feels pretty wrong and the balance of the antique armies is now once more moved towards Rome .

Quote from: badhabum on September 15, 2025, 10:51:59 AMLet me explain how I see it : Hannibal's veteran, SUP, LS can face roman veterans on near parity . The many SUP romans would have +1 at impact and melee would be equal if the lybian veterans stay 2 rank deep . Now with the change, same price 140 points, but the ME romans are now better they have the upperhand and AV romans are on parity at impact and melee ...so you pay the same points as before for a less efficient TUG so yes I am unhappy . Same goes for the spartans . Some armies might get to the shelves as it feels pretty wrong and the balance of the antique armies is now once more moved towards Rome .

A very specific case and I would argue that the issue is Melee Expert is too cheap rather than any other issue with the points system.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 15, 2025, 08:13:13 AMMust say I don't think allowing 2 units of hippeis is right and restricting the from 450 CE ones to 4 bases when they cannot be Fanatic likewise.

I'd go back to allowing a single unit of 6 in both time ranges and for the pre-450 BCE ones have them restricted to a single 4 base unit if Fanatic is chosen.

Yes, should allow non-fanatic hippeis to be in 6s.  Increase maximum number of hippeis to 12? I believe each King had their own hippeis.  A better description may be "Hippeis led Spartiates".

IIRC the 2 Spartan kings did not campaign together so there would only ever be 1 hippeis unit present.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 15, 2025, 07:26:11 AMDeliberate.  Hippeis now have the option of fanatic (think Themopylae).  Also Spartiates can now be in 9s.  All balances out.

Richard

Respectfully, I don't think it balances out Richard. The points saved from not having ME would only give you four or five additional bases of Spartiates.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 15, 2025, 11:51:38 AM

Quote from: badhabum on September 15, 2025, 10:51:59 AMLet me explain how I see it : Hannibal's veteran, SUP, LS can face roman veterans on near parity . The many SUP romans would have +1 at impact and melee would be equal if the lybian veterans stay 2 rank deep . Now with the change, same price 140 points, but the ME romans are now better they have the upperhand and AV romans are on parity at impact and melee ...so you pay the same points as before for a less efficient TUG so yes I am unhappy . Same goes for the spartans . Some armies might get to the shelves as it feels pretty wrong and the balance of the antique armies is now once more moved towards Rome .

A very specific case and I would argue that the issue is Melee Expert is too cheap rather than any other issue with the points system.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 15, 2025, 08:13:13 AMMust say I don't think allowing 2 units of hippeis is right and restricting the from 450 CE ones to 4 bases when they cannot be Fanatic likewise.

I'd go back to allowing a single unit of 6 in both time ranges and for the pre-450 BCE ones have them restricted to a single 4 base unit if Fanatic is chosen.

Yes, should allow non-fanatic hippeis to be in 6s.  Increase maximum number of hippeis to 12? I believe each King had their own hippeis.  A better description may be "Hippeis led Spartiates".

I'll continue my arguments on the specific amendment about spears it should be much better to do it there

Asiatic hoplites and kardaka in the Later Achaemenid Persian list are LSp where I'd expect them to be Spear(as they are hoplites or imitation hoplites).

Also thureophoroi in the Indo-Greek list.

Corrected the Later Achaemenid Persian and Indo-Greek lists.

Quote from: badhabum on September 15, 2025, 10:51:59 AMLet me explain how I see it : Hannibal's veteran, SUP, LS can face roman veterans on near parity . The many SUP romans would have +1 at impact and melee would be equal if the lybian veterans stay 2 rank deep . Now with the change, same price 140 points, but the ME romans are now better they have the upperhand and AV romans are on parity at impact and melee ...so you pay the same points as before for a less efficient TUG so yes I am unhappy . Same goes for the spartans . Some armies might get to the shelves as it feels pretty wrong and the balance of the antique armies is now once more moved towards Rome .

Change "Spear. New weapon category for classical hoplites and thureophoroi.
        At impact If in 2+ ranks, +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch, +1 vs others.
        In melee If in 2+ ranks, +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch, +1 vs others; if in 1 rank +1 vs foot cancelled by ME.
        Spear would not cancel mounted impact claims. 2+ deep Spear would cancel mounted melee expert claims."

I read this as spear in 2+ ranks still get the +1 versus ME infantry.

So the only change in this interaction is the extra vulnerability to supporting files, which you are supposed to avoid by having a (historically) continuous phalanx with other troops at each end.

Quote from: LawrenceG on September 16, 2025, 10:44:46 AMI read this as spear in 2+ ranks still get the +1 versus ME infantry.

This is correct.