See here.

Change "Unused PBS cards may not be used for scouting."
Change "If scouting difference 10, 20 or 30% then deploy 1/3rd of army, not percentage difference."

Retaining PBS cards for scouting was becoming an automatic choice and distorting the system in favour of armies with professional generals with a higher PBS.  The second change simplifies the deployment and avoids anomalies that can occur due to rounding the number of UGs.

Just interested 7.2 unused PBS can't be used for scouting. What problem is this trying to fix?

Quote from: sstoker22 on September 02, 2025, 09:44:53 AMJust interested 7.2 unused PBS can't be used for scouting. What problem is this trying to fix?

Professional generals hoarding RED cards and getting a big scouting benefit over horse archer and similar armies with instinctive generals.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 02, 2025, 10:30:39 AM

Quote from: sstoker22 on September 02, 2025, 09:44:53 AMJust interested 7.2 unused PBS can't be used for scouting. What problem is this trying to fix?

Professional generals hoarding RED cards and getting a big scouting benefit over horse archer and similar armies with instinctive generals.

I initially disliked this idea, but after some thought, coupled with the minimum 1/3rd deployment in PBS, this will encourage more scouting options taken and avoid the Instinctive scouting 6 frequently being outscouted by the professional scouting 2.  Seen it 3 times this year.

Interesting but it will meet some resistance

I think it's a fair enough idea - watching Roman armies outscout horse archer armies so often is grating. Perhaps we can add that as another (minor) reason why people do not use horse archer armies.

Understand the problem not that I've seen it. But a possible outcome with more than 6PBS having less utility is an increase in mediocre professional commanders.

If you need the terrain you want it still will be interesting

Quote from: badhabum on September 03, 2025, 02:21:42 PMIf you need the terrain you want it still will be interesting

Agreed

Quote from: badhabum on September 03, 2025, 02:21:42 PMIf you need the terrain you want it still will be interesting
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Quote from: badhabum on September 03, 2025, 02:21:42 PMIf you need the terrain you want it still will be interesting

Will this be enough to warrant the pts. Combined with the pts reduction to commanders    It may be a race to the bottom (well mediocre)

I think the removal of carrying cards over from PBS to scouting is a terrible idea. It removes an important decision point in the pre-GT1 play. That clever foot army commanders may have manoeuvred their opponents into a position where the only way to enter the battle area makes it very easy to see what the vanguard is going to have to do, is what is being represented by the keeping of PBS cards to the scouting phase. It is not a universal truth that lots of scouting types means you get to know what the opponent is doing. Clever manoeuvre, covering forces and deception may all have an impact on the surprise of what is where. Again better commanders are more likely to pull this off and so keeping their unused PBS cards represents this well.
That a few shooty cav types get occasionally out-scouted and complain about it loudly is no reason to fix something that is not actually broken.

It isn't the main reason for the proposal, although RJC mentioned a big advantage over horse archer armies and similar as a factor - I think I can safely say that none of the authors would be in favour of it if that was the only rationale 

The main reason is "Retaining PBS cards for scouting was becoming an automatic choice and distorting the system in favour of armies with professional generals with a higher PBS." so a combination of getting back some actual choice and mitigatinmg what we see as too much of an advantage for some army builds.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 08, 2025, 08:31:38 PMIt isn't the main reason for the proposal, although RJC mentioned a big advantage over horse archer armies and similar as a factor - I think I can safely say that none of the authors would be in favour of it if that was the only rationale 

The main reason is "Retaining PBS cards for scouting was becoming an automatic choice and distorting the system in favour of armies with professional generals with a higher PBS." so a combination of getting back some actual choice and mitigatinmg what we see as too much of an advantage for some army builds.

So removing a choice gives more choice!?! And spending points to get an advantage in 1 phase of the game and so losing troops is not a valid strategy but is instead to much of an advantage. I cannot see these as being a convincing arguments. However, I don't suppose my opinion will carry enough weight to influence the decision.

Quote from: steads on September 11, 2025, 02:39:04 AM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 08, 2025, 08:31:38 PMIt isn't the main reason for the proposal, although RJC mentioned a big advantage over horse archer armies and similar as a factor - I think I can safely say that none of the authors would be in favour of it if that was the only rationale 

The main reason is "Retaining PBS cards for scouting was becoming an automatic choice and distorting the system in favour of armies with professional generals with a higher PBS." so a combination of getting back some actual choice and mitigatinmg what we see as too much of an advantage for some army builds.

So removing a choice gives more choice!?! And spending points to get an advantage in 1 phase of the game and so losing troops is not a valid strategy but is instead to much of an advantage. I cannot see these as being a convincing arguments. However, I don't suppose my opinion will carry enough weight to influence the decision.

I think the issue is more that anyone with more than 6 PBS cards would always just save the best for scouting (I know I usually do). For many armies (infantry heavy ones especially) terrain isn't a make or break factor. If you end up in the right terrain type you're probably fine with wherever it ends up on the terrain table, and you end up controlling half the placement anyway. The result was that more PBS cards was actually more useful for scouting than more scout cards. I'm not sure the stats off hand but I can easily imagine the best card in a hand of 7 is better than 2-3 randomly drawn.

Totally disagree with this change.