See here.

Change "At the end of any turn in which another friendly UG is closer to enemy rear table edge than the scythed chariots, the scythed chariot unit is withdrawn and removed from the table."

Players have been using Scythed Chariots as mobile reserves.  Scythed chariots always led an attack.
Note: Withdrawn UGs do not cause KaB tests.

I read a few account from Mithridate wars.
At amnias river the war chariot were used for a flank attack.
It took place well after the front lines clashed

Source:

https://www.livius.org/sources/content/appian/appian-the-mithridatic-wars/appian-the-mithridatic-wars-4/

At cheronee they were used to delay the enemy and cover the retreat.

Source wrg : armies and ennemies of imperial Rome page 45.

It doesn't click with the always front line, I think.

At Chaeronea (86 BCE), the Romans opened the battle attacking the Pontic right flank which retreated.  In response, the Pontic chariots charged against the Roman centre.  I don't see that as incompatible with the new rule.

The idea in the Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome that the chariots "covered the retreat" of the Pontic forces doesn't seem to me to be justified.  The chariots attacked to try and take pressure off the Pontic forces that were retreating.

At the Battle of the River Amnias (89 BCE), the battle started with the Pontic forces attacking the Bithynians.  They (twice) repelled the attack of Neooptolemus, but then Archelaus attacked with the scythed chariots leading against the flank of Neoptolemus.

I accept in the case of the River Amnias, a bit of geographical distortion might be required.  However the fundamental point is that the chariots led the attack. 

In any case, the rule is to prevent complete misuse of scythed chariots in tournament games by introducing a simple, easily played, restriction.

To have them disappear if they are not the most front line of the whole table is harsh.
If any cav on the wings tempt a swing movement on a wing the chariot disappear because some units are ahead of them.

I am surprised that such a finicky approach won't be taken for a notoriously ineffective troop type. These boys almost never see the table anyway except as color or as a joke. Why make them almost impossible to field?

Quote from: AntiokosIII on September 02, 2025, 06:43:41 AMI am surprised that such a finicky approach won't be taken for a notoriously ineffective troop type. These boys almost never see the table anyway except as color or as a joke. Why make them almost impossible to field?

Actually, they are being increasingly taken as a mobile reserve.  Against weakened UGs they can be quite effective, are relatively cheap and even if broken can prevent the enemy UG from returning to the fight in time.

As an alternative, how about a requirement to complete a full move towards an enemy unit.  To balance points, this could be a free move?

Then one may ask how to use unarmed driven civilians ( expendables ) ? can those be used as rear reserve ( driven ? ) List 4502

Stampeding herd ?

Not affected by this proposal as it only applies to Scythed Chariots (quite deliberately).

Yes but those units are not always used as they should and can also serve a mobile reserves :-) which is how twice players did use them vs me .

I guess an eternal discussion 

I believe the civilian screen was a siege thing not a battle thing and so they probably should be removed from the lists anyway.

Richard found (IIRC) evidence of cattle herds used in different ways (ambush for one, again IIRC) and that is why they are not included. I'm sure he can elaborate.

Civilians screens will probably become a scenario rule.  As Nik indicated, they seem to be mainly a siege thing.

Cattle (and similar) herds, generally, but not exclusively, appear to have been used from ambush (a gorge or somewhere similar where they are hidden out of site). They are tribal (unliked Scythed chariots that are formed) so more difficult to manoeuvre.
Again, they probably could be a scenario rule and not for tournaments. 

My feeling is : realism vs playability / History vs Game

That's the final choice but whatever the choice the same principle must then be applied troughout the rules and proposed changes

Fall back is the same
LS the same


There must be constitency in the choices

Quote from: Rino on September 01, 2025, 02:50:16 PMTo have them disappear if they are not the most front line of the whole table is harsh.
If any cav on the wings tempt a swing movement on a wing the chariot disappear because some units are ahead of them.

I agree that must be the most forward unit on the table is harsh: How about the most forward unit within 8BW?

I would have preferred in their sector ( flank, centre ) but what about cheesy situations.

Flaming pigs, stampeding cattles should be to the front as well but do seem to be protected by Gaia

So should we go historical or keep fun and playability ?