Hello,

The lists states : Any infantry TuG may be given the Barricades characteristic. They may only be used in woods or forests, or to connect open ground between two woods or forests.

What happens if there are no woods or forests on the battlefield ? Do such TUGs deploy with barricades where they want, or are Barricades disregarded ?

Best,
Antoine

If there are no woods or forests, or any woods or forests there are are outside of where the troops can deploy, then the barricades cannot be placed and are lost.

Thank you Nik.

Antoine

After all, it is widely known that the Swedes were so brutishly ignorant, blinkered, and rigid that it would never have occurred to them to use barricades anywhere but in or near the woods. Just like Alexander is not recorded as springing an ambush or making a flank march, so his list prohibits these. Caesar never placed his Aedui  allies in the center, that we know of, so they are required to go on the flanks. Precise historical accuracy can be taken too far sometimes.

Quote from: AntiokosIII on September 24, 2024, 11:16:24 PM
Just like Alexander is not recorded as springing an ambush or making a flank march, so his list prohibits these.

No it doesn't.

Quote
Caesar never placed his Aedui  allies in the center, that we know of, so they are required to go on the flanks.

Also untrue.

A quick dig on the use of barricades by the Swedes suggests that these were felled trees, etc. created on an ad hoc basis which would explain the list restriction I guess. No woods/forests, no resource to create them at the time.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 25, 2024, 06:15:45 AM

Quote from: AntiokosIII on September 24, 2024, 11:16:24 PM
Just like Alexander is not recorded as springing an ambush or making a flank march, so his list prohibits these.

No it doesn't.

Quote
Caesar never placed his Aedui  allies in the center, that we know of, so they are required to go on the flanks.

Also untrue.

Reflecting that it may be that you were looking to make a rhetorical point here about an apparent arbitrary restriction, but it did not come across that way to me.

I think that limitations on the barricade characteristic in that particular case is a bit exaggerated. It costs 40 points a base and you are not even sure to be able to use it. Perhaps the source of that characteristic comes from events like the one described bellow

QuoteIn the Saga of Haakon Haakonsson, ch 115, there is an account in the winter of 1225 of a barricade (braate) in the middle of the road. This would consist logs of timber hewed from the surrounding forest. It was set up by the defending Swedish peasantry to halt the incoming Norwegian army and to allow the peasantry time to escape their farms and seek refuge into the hills. The Norweigan king sent a company of 120 horsemen/archers to clear the barricade while the main army was waiting behind. When they arrived at the barricade, only a few Swedes were there, whom quickly fled the field. The Norweigan scouting company had brought wood cutting axes which they used to clear the logs. The king and his Hirdmen would stand close by on guard in case there was an ambush.

It is then described that the retinue and scouts would quickly get past the barricade, while the horses were carefully lead over the barricade. This barricade may perhaps been very large, because confusion erupted between the men on each side of the barricade. The men who had jet to pass the barricade thought the king was fighting with the Swedes on the other side, so large part of the army quickly rushed over the barricade to assist the king, and thereby breaking some of the infantry sleds used by the army. Also on the other side, the king also thought there was fighting going on due to the noise of the army rushing over. There were no Swedes there, but the confusion may suggest size of the barricade was substantial enough to cause confusion.

It is recorded that militia used that kind of tactic against invaders or building roadblocks of whaterver was at hand ( wood, stones ...)

So either this possibility should not exist as really too limited OR just as Alexander mus be the invader, a swedish army that has barricades must be or is always the defender whatever the dice do decide but a skulll remains an intercept. That would give the swedes a chance to have their woods . Just a an idea for later modifications

Historicity is one thing, playability another

There is certainly a good argument for some options in armies dictating whether they should be automatically the defender (think we only have 1 compulsory defender in the lists at present). Richard has recently mentioned about some troops really only appearing in "home defence" armies, often mass levy types (cropped up when we were chatting at Footsloggers as well). Well worth a look into in future list revisions.

Quote from: badhabum on September 25, 2024, 08:08:19 PM
Historicity is one thing, playability another

I'd also comment that in my view we have never felt that anything that is optional in a list needs to be inherently playable in a competition environment (which is the main use of lists); some things are in as much for scenario/refight guidance as anything.

I also suspect some lists in their entirety are not considered playable either 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 25, 2024, 08:19:40 AM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 25, 2024, 06:15:45 AM

Quote from: AntiokosIII on September 24, 2024, 11:16:24 PM
Just like Alexander is not recorded as springing an ambush or making a flank march, so his list prohibits these.

No it doesn't.

Quote
Caesar never placed his Aedui  allies in the center, that we know of, so they are required to go on the flanks.

Also untrue.

Reflecting that it may be that you were looking to make a rhetorical point here about an apparent arbitrary restriction, but it did not come across that way to me.

\

My sarcasm was apparently too subtle; not a fault (excessive subtlety) I am often accused of. I was indeed making a rhetorical point. Badly, as it turns out.



9

There is a similar situation with the First Bulgarian Empire. The Bulgars used to build barricades at choke points in the mountain valleys to trap the Byzantines. So you could justify barricades between two steep hills as an option for the Bulgars. Instead their list just notes it as a scenario option/idea.
Maybe it should just be turned into a similar list note for the Swedes?

Quote
My sarcasm was apparently too subtle; not a fault (excessive subtlety) I am often accused of. I was indeed making a rhetorical point. Badly, as it turns out.

Surely not :O

Hy coming back due to some discussion : "may be given the barricades characteristic" Given is not a free lucnh you must still pay for the barricades  ( or not )

Only free in a weird alternate reality