This potential rule change was in response to a feeling that long spear are slightly underpowered against foot.
Foot LSp melee claims: +1 if in 1+ ranks vs any foot; +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch if in 2+ ranks.
Charge claims would be unchanged.
Cancellation effects would be unchanged.

The same rule about supporting files not being downgraded in colour if supporting a file fighting pike would also apply if supporting a file fighting long spear.

So foot Long Spear would need to be in two ranks to claim during the charge, but against foot would only need one rank in melee combat.
The supporting file idea is to encourage the flanks of a phalanx to be protected.
The idea of still needing two ranks to claim against cavalry is the idea that cavalry could push through a shallow formation and you need the depth.

Would need more testing than I have been able to do.  Would also need to see if any points adjustment was necessary, but initially would hope to avoid that.

Richard

feels 'wrong' , makes the average hoplite as good as a Roman Legionary in melee.

gives them a double bonus of shove and long spear while in two ranks and having lost the 2nd rank are still at +1 so fighting. I suspect will put tribal types at a bigger disadvantage if held from the charge against hoplites

It might be positive .

It still would not make it equal to roman legionary as terrain will affect the LS which was the key difference .

My only reticence would be that PA would work the opposite way as one rank deep gives a +1 vs anything, it need 2 rank deep vs infantry and one rank deep vs cavalry to have a +1 ...What would explain such a difference and what about balance European hoplite LS and Asian infantry PA ( or medieval European close order PA ) + What about the flanks of a PA infantry TUG

But studying the possibility would be nice

Quote from: badhabum on January 28, 2025, 12:59:12 PM
It might be positive .

It still would not make it equal to roman legionary as terrain will affect the LS which was the key difference .

currently do your 2 ranks of close order long spear spend much time fighting flexible Romans in terrain? if not I'd suggest that might not be quite that relevant to the discussion.

There are loose order long spear in a reasonable number of lists.

True there are loose order LS

Still roman legions face to face with pikeswere always the loosers, what about face to face with LShoplites  is an unknown fact that never happened except vs Carthaginians sometimes they won sometimes they lost

So the flank being more vulnerable seems positive to me. Other changes the same I think you need to test it

If the flank is under flank protection as per rule 5.1 PDF pg 60 . Would the flank be protected and no colour drop or do you consider it always open flank for the overlap

Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 28, 2025, 10:12:21 AM


The same rule about supporting files not being downgraded in colour if supporting a file fighting pike would also apply if supporting a file fighting long spear.

Would that not complicate things ?

already by charging a flank from the front,  does cancel the files bonus.

How would it articulate with the 1BW flank protection?

Overall, would it not push players with LS and pike armies to play in a more compact way and make these armies less attractive?

QuoteOverall, would it not push players with LS and pike armies to play in a more compact way and make these armies less attractive?

It was an historical factso that's not a problem as long as all infantry armies will have to be compact due to flank deployment restrictions

Quote from: badhabum on January 28, 2025, 04:39:43 PM

QuoteOverall, would it not push players with LS and pike armies to play in a more compact way and make these armies less attractive?

It was an historical factso that's not a problem as long as all infantry armies will have to be compact due to flank deployment restrictions

i know you are right, but same for barbarians, same for medievals and so on

Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 28, 2025, 10:12:21 AM
This potential rule change was in response to a feeling that long spear are slightly underpowered against foot.

I'm not sure I agree with the premise? Yes, Long Spears get the short end of the stick against Melee Expert infantry, but they have competitive to dominant matchups against nearly every other target type (barring a quality or armor disparity).

Given a choice between equivalent units of LS or Short Spear+Shieldwall, I'd be surprised if most people wouldn't pick the LS.

Quote from: Doomsmile on January 28, 2025, 05:48:15 PM

Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 28, 2025, 10:12:21 AM
This potential rule change was in response to a feeling that long spear are slightly underpowered against foot.

I'm not sure I agree with the premise? Yes, Long Spears get the short end of the stick against Melee Expert infantry, but they have competitive to dominant matchups against nearly every other target type (barring a quality or armor disparity).

Given a choice between equivalent units of LS or Short Spear+Shieldwall, I'd be surprised if most people wouldn't pick the LS.

agree fully shortspears become brittle after impact

Longspear is already pretty good. Not seeing any need for making it any better. If you're looking for an infantry weapon that could do with a bit of a boost (or become cheaper) I think Polearm is where you should start.

Martin

Quote from: martymagnificent on January 29, 2025, 02:37:10 AM
Longspear is already pretty good. Not seeing any need for making it any better. If you're looking for an infantry weapon that could do with a bit of a boost (or become cheaper) I think Polearm is where you should start.

Martin

indeed PA would also need a boost

Okay - not getting much support for that idea!

Quote from: tarnowski1 on January 28, 2025, 11:22:39 AM
feels 'wrong' , makes the average hoplite as good as a Roman Legionary in melee.

gives them a double bonus of shove and long spear while in two ranks and having lost the 2nd rank are still at +1 so fighting. I suspect will put tribal types at a bigger disadvantage if held from the charge against hoplites

+1