Shove an  shatter 

During the Ribble Rumble event I encountered an unusual situation and Nik, whose opinion was asked,  ruled it on a logical geometrical basis and the game went on. 

But I had my doubts, checked and think either he was mistaken or the rules need some clarifications,

I had a DC+CL TUG charged in the flank by some fleet of foot infantry. A second unit was also impacted by that charge. That second unit was a neighbouring file as per definition pg 134 of the pdf edition but also slightly behind the first impacted unit

    K

C K M

C C M 



C is the charging unit K is the impacted knights and M the other mounted unit also impacted 



The charger will first fight the knights. The knights will roll "S" so a shatter . The question was asked : does the shatter impact the second fight .



It was argued that as it was a flank charge the defender could not claim shatter 

Si I now checked the definition of shatter an of shove . Nowhere is it written that the effect is to the front only – or perhaps I did miss it - ( pg 79 and 80 of the pdf version )

Geometrically it seems strange that the "S" result would be applied to the second fight but if we keep in memory that a base is the imprint of a unit it could be explained as the knights managed to disorganise the flank charge .

But what is the intend ?

My reading is that as the rules are written, a "S" result even during a flank charge has an impact on the neighbouring files ( but not in it's own file which is strange but it is a special case ) 

If Shatter and shove should be only to the front, may I suggest that is should be specified and if my reading is wrong please can someone tell me why, not based on geometrical logic, but on how the rules are written and so what did I miss

Shatter and shove give their bonuses to the neighbouring file. (PDF edition p 122 and 123).
Neighbouring file is defined as a file that is in edge contact with, facing the same way and parallel to the file creating the shatter or shove.

I agree that nowhere in the rules does the base have to be fighting to its front. I don't have access to the Compendium edition at the moment (house being redecorated), so unless that says something to the contrary, my view is the shatter and shove bonus applies to flank and rear.  Whether it should or not is another matter.

Richard

QRS says Shatters and shoves are only applicable when fighting to the front, they have the appropriate *

Quote from: tarnowski1 on December 13, 2024, 09:11:17 AM
QRS says Shatters and shoves are only applicable when fighting to the front, they have the appropriate *

Is that the compendium QRS?    If so, I will add an errata entry for the PDF edition.

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on December 13, 2024, 10:03:41 AM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on December 13, 2024, 09:11:17 AM
QRS says Shatters and shoves are only applicable when fighting to the front, they have the appropriate *

Is that the compendium QRS?    If so, I will add an errata entry for the PDF edition.

Richard

both, the qrs in the pdf version shows it also

[attachment deleted by admin]

I believe that the * means that the file only claims the +2/+1 when fighting to its front - it says nothing about the direction that the file that caused the Shatter/Shove was fighting in (alas).

IMO given the description of what Shatter represents (PDF page 79 6 F 2.2) the intention is that it should only apply to files facing the same direction that the Shatter "faced" (and Shove by analogy).

Of course, if we used the Pacto method of resolving Shatter and Shove the whole issue goes away    I am seriously thinking of using it in the comps I organise next year and this case further encourages me 

Quote from: tarnowski1 on December 13, 2024, 09:11:17 AM
QRS says Shatters and shoves are only applicable when fighting to the front, they have the appropriate *

I fear you are wrong . The "S" effect is not affected by the *

Look aT DC, there is no * and also the * is before ans "S"

Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 13, 2024, 10:25:28 AM
I believe that the * means that the file only claims the +2/+1 when fighting to its front - it says nothing about the direction that the file that caused the Shatter/Shove was fighting in (alas).

IMO given the description of what Shatter represents (PDF page 79 6 F 2.2) the intention is that it should only apply to files facing the same direction that the Shatter "faced" (and Shove by analogy).

Of course, if we used the Pacto method of resolving Shatter and Shove the whole issue goes away    I am seriously thinking of using it in the comps I organise next year and this case further encourages me 

Yes it applies to the files facing the same direction as the file creating the shatter/Shove which was the case

And I do agree, the "pacto" system is easier to use ans does solve the problem

We used it in our latest test game yesterday and it worked rather well

Yep, really a lot quicker and easier to do from the other side of the table too, I can confirm! 

Quote from: badhabum on December 13, 2024, 10:41:27 AM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on December 13, 2024, 09:11:17 AM
QRS says Shatters and shoves are only applicable when fighting to the front, they have the appropriate *

I fear you are wrong . The "S" effect is not affected by the *

Look aT DC, there is no * and also the * is before ans "S"

You said that M and K were contacted in the flank, ok so K creates a shatter but M cant benefit from it as he is not fighting to his front. So not sure what the contradiction is?

You are correct - M could not claim the +2 for Shatter when fighting to its flank.

I may have been confused by the ascii diagram - photos are just so much more obvious to interpret IMO.

However, if M also had a combat to its front, by the rules wording as RJC commented, it would be able to claim the shatter for that combat 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 13, 2024, 01:17:54 PM
You are correct - M could not claim the +2 for Shatter when fighting to its flank.

I may have been confused by the ascii diagram - photos are just so much more obvious to interpret IMO.

However, if M also had a combat to its front, by the rules wording as RJC commented, it would be able to claim the shatter for that combat 

Could you please point out exactly where it is written that the fight must be to the front as per pg 79 2.5 : neighbouring files get an immediate +2 bonus in any unresolved fight in charge combat  (in case of shove it would be +1 )

So Ok you tell me it must be to the front but where is it specified in the rules. To me as written "unresolved fights" means any fights front, rear ..please can you explain this , point the way

To be clear: the issue here is not that anyone here would want to create an exception to the rule, it is just that the rule seems somewhat ambiguous and leaves space for multiple interpretations. The aim is more clarity, not to be gamey with the rules, but instead, make it so that nobody can be gamey with them.

Quote from: badhabum on December 13, 2024, 08:39:12 PM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 13, 2024, 01:17:54 PM
You are correct - M could not claim the +2 for Shatter when fighting to its flank.

I may have been confused by the ascii diagram - photos are just so much more obvious to interpret IMO.

However, if M also had a combat to its front, by the rules wording as RJC commented, it would be able to claim the shatter for that combat 

Could you please point out exactly where it is written that the fight must be to the front as per pg 79 2.5 : neighbouring files get an immediate +2 bonus in any unresolved fight in charge combat  (in case of shove it would be +1 )

So Ok you tell me it must be to the front but where is it specified in the rules. To me as written "unresolved fights" means any fights front, rear ..please can you explain this , point the way

you are missing our collective point, the shatter is created by the K fighting to the flank, no argument. However the M base, also fighting to the flank, cannot count the bonus as it is not fighting to the front (see Qrs). As Nik points out if M was also fighting to its front it would count that shatter fighting forwards but not to its flank.

As Matt says see the QRS - the +2 and +1 claims for Shatter and Shove have the "*" which is "Only claimable when fighting to front".