As I have mentioned it in passing before I'll throw it out as a question.

It looks to me as though knights from the crusades period onwards formed up in a close formation. We have the description from the crusades that "if an apple had been thrown amongst them, it would not have fallen to the ground without touching a man or a horse" and from western Europe at a similar time that knights were drawn up so close that "the wind could not blow between their lances".

OK, no doubt a touch of artistic exageration there, but indicative of close formation.

might solve the lil problem of the being as fast as mounted bowmen

I know little to nothing about the history, but my beloved horse archer armies would get drunk for a month if this were put into effect.

I'm surprised anyone thought that knights formed anything other than very close order.

Mark

The good question would be : did they charge in close order and from when did they charge close order ?

And what do you define as a "knight" ? CL only, devastating chargers

What about roxolan lancers, Iranian lancers, macedonian companions  etc...

There is a pandora box here do we open it ?

Quote from: badhabum on April 11, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
And what do you define as a "knight" ? CL only, devastating chargers

I'm pretty sure that most of us reading through of the lists can identify most of the relevent troops with little difficulty - it really is quite obvious, just don't over think things.

The area of uncertainty would be at what point close order starts - that'd certainly be up for investigation and discussion.

My first instincts (mostly from looking at oriental cavalry in the Renaissance & Napoleonic eras) are:

the toe-to-toe /knee-to-knee slow charge of cuirassiers is very a western European thing, whereas cavalry of oriental armies didn't move quite as close together, primarily because they were bow armed in most cases, and you'd need more elbow room to use a bow in the walk/trot stage of the advance. Whilst carryng a lance or long spear, axe, sword and mace or whatever. Whilst the difference maybe only inches between two adjacent riders, over the frontage of a 1000 man regiment in 4-ranks deep it becomes significant. Added to this is the individualistic fighting styles of oriental soldiers with sharp swords after the lance/spear is used probably needs an extra bit of fighting room. Nations that were at the crossroads of western and oriental styles of formation (eg Balkan states, Russia(n) states) then pick up a confusing conglomeration of both at differing times.

So perhaps the first place to look when comparing which type of 'knight' is close order or not-quite-so-close order is whether they are bow armed or not. (Things like darts fog the issue a bit I guess, but they're not that common I think).

I just noticed that the Frankish knights in the 12th Georgian army I'm building are classed as Loose Order in MeG - if I hadn't looked I would have based them 4 to a base without thinking!

Gentlemen, your answers just confirm what I wrote : it is not that simple 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 11, 2019, 08:25:29 PM
The area of uncertainty would be at what point close order starts - that'd certainly be up for investigation and discussion.

Actually, recalling discussions way back when the DBMM lists were being drawn up it'd be somewhere between Hastings and the start of the 1st Crusade - basically when charging in formation with a couched lance became pretty universal for most western milites*. Pick a date ...


* dear Phil, of course, had to rationalise it in terms of knghtly equipment but it amounted to the same thing 

With the knights learning how to cope with mounted archers and so getting better at catching them... Nice

Here is the List Editor's view.

1. I accept there are descriptions of knights that would imply they could form up in what we might describe as a close formation.  This in itself does not prove that they actually manouvred and fought in such a close formation.  I am less convinced by the argument that this change happened at a particular date or that it was specifically a Western European thing.  Specifically, I cannot visualise a charging formation maintaining such close order without some pretty horrific consequences, just imagine one horse stumbling and the chaos it would cause (the modern equivalent might be a crash at speed in a cycling peleton - watch any major bike race).  Cataphracts are specifically described in classical sources as making contact at a trot, yet I haven't seen any suggestion that Medieval knights charged at a trot.

2. If we just changed knights to be close order, this would upset the balance of the rules (horse archers would have a field-day!).  Without other changes, this would significantly reduce the power of knights.  As soon as you change one bit, it has consequences elsewhere.

3. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, how does this affect other charging lancers?

In summary, the lists are unlikely to be changed to make knights close order.

Richard

What's wrong with horse-archers having a field day? we LIKE field days.