Asked on WhatsApp.

If you pursue into new enemy in the charge phase it is a pursuit but you use charge combat factors and effects.  So troops with integral shooters do not claim them and troops with Shieldwall cannot claim them (as they did not "stand to receive a charge").

If you pursued in the previous turn into fresh enemy and then get charged you still cannot claim integral shooters against the troops you pursued into (because they did not charge you) but you can claim integral shooters and shieldwall against any enemy who charged you as by that time you are standing to receive.

I now expect somebody will now find out that the rules don't actually say this.

Update - the rules don't actually say what I have written here!  Which shows that you need to read the rules calmly and carefully!  We will provide a further update when we have completed doing that.


Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 31, 2024, 09:59:25 AM
If you pursued in the previous turn into fresh enemy and then get charged you still cannot claim integral shooters against the troops you pursued into (because they did not charge you) but you can claim integral shooters and shieldwall against any enemy who charged you as by that time you are standing to receive.

Think Shieldwall will count in both cases (enemy pursued into and enemy charging you) as the criteria for it not applying is "It cannot be claimed by TuGs that have done a charge, countercharge, or intercept in the
current phase." - the current phase bit being key as you are now fighting in a phase subsequent to the one you pursued in.

Recommend take as written ... as was deliberate.

Essentially tropes have perused into then NOT charged them ... so fight a charge combat with factor applying as troops not charge so can't claim standing to receive etc. 

Therefore more chaos than if just charged and fixes my cheese I was keen to avoid..

Shieldwall would apply buy I like that as its defensive not causing damage.

Si

Ok so if you pursue in the charge phase, and make contact with another unit. You are neither moving (so foot don't count as moving foot), nor standing to receive, but something in between.

So long spear infantry pursuing into pike would count +2 for long spear. The lancers would still get their +2 for charging lance, but they would not get an additional +1 for moving foot.

GK

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 31, 2024, 10:33:24 AM

Essentially tropes have perused into then NOT charged them ... so fight a charge combat with factor applying as troops not charge so can't claim standing to receive etc. 

If the pursuing troops are deemed to have not charged then they can claim all the advantages of standing to receive as the latter is having not charged, etc. (per QRS, glossary says have not declared a charge FWIW and that is what is used when playing as even if you declare a charge you may not actually charge due to the move sequence).

Tour missing the subtlety there nick.

It is that the impacted troops have not been charged.  So they cannot claim the ** items.  The only troops who  re charged are those reached in the charges.

Si

Slight cross purposes.

I am talking about the impacting troops not the impacted - this is what the original query was about.

I was going to come on to the impacted due to the potential for different interpretations due to the slightly different QRS and Glossary wordings of Standing to Receive 

actually the question asked was

'Yep, but standing to receive a charge is defined as not charging, counter charging or intercepting. Foot are also singled out in pursuit move section of the rules as not being classed as charging as they didn't 'declare' a charge. So shieldwall also counts for pursuing foot who hit mounted'

which led to a discussion about 10.4 in the pursuit section of the rules pdf  which led to this

' my foot count as moving for any mounted they pursued into (but didn't declare a charge) so don't count shieldwall or integral shooter but do count shieldwall and integral shooter to any mounted that charge them in the same phase as they will fight the pursuing combat? '

end result according to the rules my pursuing foot are both stationary and moving (charging) in the same phase

Maybe this discussion will collapse the wave function and we'll know what state they are actually in 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 31, 2024, 10:39:15 AM


If the pursuing troops are deemed to have not charged then they can claim all the advantages of standing to receive as the latter is having not charged, etc. (per QRS, glossary says have not declared a charge FWIW and that is what is used when playing as even if you declare a charge you may not actually charge due to the move sequence).

So if you make an undeclared forced charge you are standing to receive?

No. 

Nik RJC and I will have a chat tonight as it's going round in circles and doesn't need to.

Si

PSA

As this is getting a bit complex Simon, Richard, and I are going to get our heads together and talk it through so we can look at Simon's original intention as well as the rules wording.

We will then post an official response ASAP.

I may be confusing the issues by not really knowing the questions.... so yes let's gather properly.

Okay - had a discussion with Simon and Nik.

Rules involved here are:

Page 106.  Please read the entire section to get the context.  I have merely listed the key points here and the text in italics is my commentary.

8.D. Pursuit Moves

9. TuGs that cannot run away or skirmish stand to receive. 

10. If a new enemy is contacted:
10.1  Treat this as a charge move.  This shows that a pursuit move is treated as a charge.
10.4 If infantry contact fresh enemy and are also charged by mounted, they do not count as having charged (as no charge was declared).

Appendix 1.F SHIELDWALL

2. It cannot be claimed by TuGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase.

GLOSSARY
Standing to Receive: Staying in a position to receive a charge - Not have declared a charge, run away, skirmish, countercharge or intercept.

COMMENTARY

10.1 shows that a pursuit move that contacts enemy is treated as a charge.

10.4 is actually redundant, it achieves nothing. (For information, it was introduced as a clarification, but it actually achieves nothing).

The key concept is Standing to Receive.  The important bit is "staying in position".  The examples "not having declared a charge, run away, skirmish, countercharge or intercept."  Pursuit should be added to this list.  Troops pursuing are not standing to receive.

So to answer the original questions in the WhatsApp group:

Integral Shooters give charge combat claims against chargers when standing to receive a charge from ahead of their front line (p 124 PDF edition).  A pursuit is treated as a charge so enemy contacted ahead of their front line by pursuers can make charge combat claims against pursuers.
Shieldwall cannot be claimed by TUGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase.  So if a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Charge Phase and contacts fresh enemy it will not be able to claim Shieldwall (as the combat will be in the same phase).  If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).

Note: Pursuers are not standing to receive, so if the pursuers had long spear and they are charged by lancers (CL), the lancers will be able to make the charge claim for CL.

Richard

So simply common sense 🤷‍♂️