My feeling is the way MeG works, if you can stack enough plusses on a 15 base frontage so that you are pretty much guaranteed to beat whatever is in front of it in any terrain, you are pretty much guaranteed to win all your games.

Hence Romans seem overpowered.

Has anyone ever taken a Roman army without maxing out on Exceptional and Superior, Impact weapon, Melee Expert if it's available and shield cover to neutralise shooty cavalry?  If not, then those troops are too cheap. It should not be a no-brainer to buy all the upgrades.

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 06:02:31 PM
Has anyone ever taken a Roman army without maxing out on Exceptional and Superior, Impact weapon, Melee Expert if it's available and shield cover to neutralise shooty cavalry?  If not, then those troops are too cheap. It should not be a no-brainer to buy all the upgrades.

You mean like Lance's Warfare winning list which had no ME? Also did not take the max allowed upgraded (quality) infantry.

Shield Cover is not optional so you can't include that in maxing out really 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 14, 2023, 06:08:02 PM

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 06:02:31 PM
Has anyone ever taken a Roman army without maxing out on Exceptional and Superior, Impact weapon, Melee Expert if it's available and shield cover to neutralise shooty cavalry?  If not, then those troops are too cheap. It should not be a no-brainer to buy all the upgrades.

You mean like Lance's Warfare winning list which had no ME? Also did not take the max allowed upgraded (quality) infantry.

Shield Cover is not optional so you can't include that in maxing out really 

Fair enough, although arguably he had a "cunning plan" in the form of 2 TUGs of cataphracts to mitigate the lack of ME.

Well he certainly had a cunning plan or two 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 14, 2023, 06:20:48 PM
Well he certainly had a cunning plan or two 

Still, it's prima facie evidence that Romans will be fine if the superiors and exceptionals can't have melee expert.

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 06:02:31 PM
My feeling is the way MeG works, if you can stack enough plusses on a 15 base frontage so that you are pretty much guaranteed to beat whatever is in front of it in any terrain, you are pretty much guaranteed to win all your games.

Hence Romans seem overpowered.

My first game at Skulls was against a Roman with exceptional and superior legions. Etruscans can't match that although the Samnite linen legion are equal in melee to superior legions. In the whole game I was able to limit the exceptionals to one combat that they entered late in the game and they did not break the TuG they hit.

Romans are good but the superior and exceptional legions are expensive which seems fair as they are actually rather good.

Quote from: Hammy on November 15, 2023, 11:33:14 AM

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 06:02:31 PM
My feeling is the way MeG works, if you can stack enough plusses on a 15 base frontage so that you are pretty much guaranteed to beat whatever is in front of it in any terrain, you are pretty much guaranteed to win all your games.

Hence Romans seem overpowered.

My first game at Skulls was against a Roman with exceptional and superior legions. Etruscans can't match that although the Samnite linen legion are equal in melee to superior legions. In the whole game I was able to limit the exceptionals to one combat that they entered late in the game and they did not break the TuG they hit.

Romans are good but the superior and exceptional legions are expensive which seems fair as they are actually rather good.

"Pretty much" not "Absolutely".  The point is, nearly all your units had a +1 in charge and melee, but it was still you that needed the cunning plan. Fortunately, you are cunning enough.

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 04:49:55 PM

Quote from: badhabum on November 14, 2023, 04:22:07 PM

QuoteAlso French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.

A minority but yes we do have some talented players and I count myself in ( I should use more winning armies ) . But minority does not make a blooming hobby !

The majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at tournaments. At the most, only 5 do at each tournament.

As we do not see any UK players in continental Europe well yes one  ...except next week two do goe to Athens

I can think of 3 including myself

Quote from: badhabum on November 15, 2023, 07:27:33 PM

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 04:49:55 PM

The majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at tournaments. At the most, only 5 do at each tournament.

As we do not see any UK players in continental Europe well yes one  ...except next week two do goe to Athens

I meant the majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at UK tournaments.

Quote from: steads on November 16, 2023, 08:21:02 AM
I can think of 3 including myself

I counted you in , will happily see you back at IWC and the Pitfield factory is not counted as full UK 

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 14, 2023, 04:49:55 PM

Quote from: badhabum on November 14, 2023, 04:22:07 PM

QuoteAlso French players come over to UK tournaments and place in the top 5 (at Britcon and Warfare), so it is possible to be a very good player without living in the UK.

A minority but yes we do have some talented players and I count myself in ( I should use more winning armies ) . But minority does not make a blooming hobby !

The majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at tournaments. At the most, only 5 do at each tournament.

If you attend Stockport in December I might explain what I mean as it is difficult to explain by forum . the eternal problem of forums

Quote from: badhabum on November 16, 2023, 04:13:59 PM
If you attend Stockport in December I might explain what I mean

Are you trying to put Lawrence off going? 

I do wonder if there is a case for increasing the cost of certain combination of attributes.

I'm SURE the fierce Galatians SSp DC with ME are significantly better than their cost.
I suspect that Cataphracts with LS, Fully arm are somewhat better superiors a little more so.
Similarly with Superior ME legionaries.

It maybe that having +3 or more as a possibility in charge combat or +2 or more in melee combat needs a bit of a surcharge?

CL are less susceptible as long spear and pike are somewhat hard counters.
You could argue that shooty cavalry lists and Hammy like avoidance of very good infantry might be a counter too but I'm still inclined to feel a small points alteration is in order.

Somewhat as a reverse of this I must point out the most broken points currently is   James IV Scots with all the pike downgraded to poor.

I challenge anyone to come up with a TuG that can take that on point for point (Fierce galatians excepted )

Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 16, 2023, 05:36:40 PM

Quote from: badhabum on November 16, 2023, 04:13:59 PM
If you attend Stockport in December I might explain what I mean

Are you trying to put Lawrence off going? 

It all depends if he dares face me in an open discussion or not