Quote from: ShrubMiK on October 29, 2023, 09:51:45 AM


And I would hope we don't end up in a situation where e.g. two opposing units each break their frontal opponent and end up in only front corner to front corner contact; and then whoever moves first contacts the flank of the opponent and the opponent is denied a chance to respond effectively.

the author covered that in the last published clarifications

'CONTACTS THAT LEAD TO COMBAT Charge moves, pursuit moves, the provisions of Page 132 M, and MF1 moves are the only moves allowed that end in a contact that would result in a combat other than becoming a supporting file. NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM

Quote from: ShrubMiK on October 29, 2023, 09:51:45 AM


And I would hope we don't end up in a situation where e.g. two opposing units each break their frontal opponent and end up in only front corner to front corner contact; and then whoever moves first contacts the flank of the opponent and the opponent is denied a chance to respond effectively.

the author covered that in the last published clarifications

'CONTACTS THAT LEAD TO COMBAT Charge moves, pursuit moves, the provisions of Page 132 M, and MF1 moves are the only moves allowed that end in a contact that would result in a combat other than becoming a supporting file. NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

excuse me but I'm not sure to understand what happen when my TUG  in the poursuing movement following a melee phase, contact with his front the flank of a new enemy and the combat will be resolved in the next charge phase?? what I read above seems not cover this case 

Kind regards.

PUNCH

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM
NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

If a charging tug makes side edge to side edge contact with a SUG, the SUG has been contacted by a charging TUG and should be destroyed, shouldn't it?

Quote from: PUNCH on November 18, 2023, 04:41:01 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM

Quote from: ShrubMiK on October 29, 2023, 09:51:45 AM


And I would hope we don't end up in a situation where e.g. two opposing units each break their frontal opponent and end up in only front corner to front corner contact; and then whoever moves first contacts the flank of the opponent and the opponent is denied a chance to respond effectively.

the author covered that in the last published clarifications

'CONTACTS THAT LEAD TO COMBAT Charge moves, pursuit moves, the provisions of Page 132 M, and MF1 moves are the only moves allowed that end in a contact that would result in a combat other than becoming a supporting file. NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

excuse me but I'm not sure to understand what happen when my TUG  in the poursuing movement following a melee phase, contact with his front the flank of a new enemy and the combat will be resolved in the next charge phase?? what I read above seems not cover this case 

Kind regards.

PUNCH

I was answering the bit I left in quotes 'And I would hope we don't end up in a situation where e.g. two opposing units each break their frontal opponent and end up in only front corner to front corner contact; and then whoever moves first contacts the flank of the opponent and the opponent is denied a chance to respond effectively.'

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 18, 2023, 08:23:09 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM
NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

If a charging tug makes side edge to side edge contact with a SUG, the SUG has been contacted by a charging TUG and should be destroyed, shouldn't it?

I'm guessing the TUG is within 1 base width of breaking otherwise yes the sug should be destroyed.

But the SUG could just skirmish before being caught

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 10:43:15 PM

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 18, 2023, 08:23:09 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM
NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

If a charging tug makes side edge to side edge contact with a SUG, the SUG has been contacted by a charging TUG and should be destroyed, shouldn't it?

I'm guessing the TUG is within 1 base width of breaking otherwise yes the sug should be destroyed.

So a great way to eliminate a SUG is to charge something next to it so you end up in side edge to side edge contact and it has no opportunity to evade?

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 20, 2023, 11:30:05 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 10:43:15 PM

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 18, 2023, 08:23:09 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM
NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

If a charging tug makes side edge to side edge contact with a SUG, the SUG has been contacted by a charging TUG and should be destroyed, shouldn't it?

I'm guessing the TUG is within 1 base width of breaking otherwise yes the sug should be destroyed.

So a great way to eliminate a SUG is to charge something next to it so you end up in side edge to side edge contact and it has no opportunity to evade?

as currently written i'd say yes

If you contact it edge to edge as in your exemple, and it's charge phase and you say it's a contact then the SUG may/must evade. So it will not be destroyed unless it misses it's die rolls .

I'll say it in another way : it you charge hits the SUG, even on the side then the SUG is target of the charge then go to page 65 of the rules...SUGS must run away or skirmish .

It would be nice to have one of the gardians of the rules to be clear on it .

Quote from: PUNCH on November 18, 2023, 04:41:01 PM

Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 18, 2023, 09:56:46 AM

Quote from: ShrubMiK on October 29, 2023, 09:51:45 AM


And I would hope we don't end up in a situation where e.g. two opposing units each break their frontal opponent and end up in only front corner to front corner contact; and then whoever moves first contacts the flank of the opponent and the opponent is denied a chance to respond effectively.

the author covered that in the last published clarifications

'CONTACTS THAT LEAD TO COMBAT Charge moves, pursuit moves, the provisions of Page 132 M, and MF1 moves are the only moves allowed that end in a contact that would result in a combat other than becoming a supporting file. NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

excuse me but I'm not sure to understand what happen when my TUG  in the poursuing movement following a melee phase, contact with his front the flank of a new enemy and the combat will be resolved in the next charge phase?? what I read above seems not cover this case 

Kind regards.

PUNCH

I also would like a final ruling as it will make changes in the rules ..it's a very important point of rule

WE NEED TO REVIEW THE CLARIFICATIONS IN LIGHT OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE PDF EDITION - PLEASE BEAR WITH US ON THIS.


An UG is charged if the front edge or front corner of the UG contacts the enemy UG.  A side edge contacting the side edge of an enemy UG has not charged it.  Note: this situation only occurs when the opposing UGs are directly "lined up".  If the charger is charging at an angle to the enemy UG then it cannot end up in edge to edge contact.

Assuming a charging TuG finishes its charge in edge to edge contact with an enemy SUG, the following points are relevant:

1. Assuming the charger does not end up in a melee, the charger won't be able to do an M9 move in that turn (having charged).  The SuG will have an opportunity to move away.
2. If the charger is in melee, the charger might make an MF1 move in the movement phase to create a new file where the enemy SUG currently is. The enemy SuG is pushed back (4.I in the PDF edition, 9.3.I in the compendium edition).
3. The same MF1 move is possible at the end of the fighting phase, but in this instance the SuG is not pushed back (because push backs only happen in the movement phase).  This will initiate a melee in the following turn.  Note that the SuG would have had an opportunity to move away in the movement phase.

Please don't treat these as official clarifications.  They are posted to help understand the rules.

Thank you

Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 21, 2023, 11:33:51 AM
  This will initiate a melee in the following turn.  Note that the SuG would have had an opportunity to move away in the movement phase.

so the SUG fights?

Quote from: Jilu on November 21, 2023, 04:10:00 PM
so the SUG fights?

Yes.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 21, 2023, 11:33:51 AM
WE NEED TO REVIEW THE CLARIFICATIONS IN LIGHT OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE PDF EDITION - PLEASE BEAR WITH US ON THIS.


An UG is charged if the front edge or front corner of the UG contacts the enemy UG.  A side edge contacting the side edge of an enemy UG has not charged it.  Note: this situation only occurs when the opposing UGs are directly "lined up".  If the charger is charging at an angle to the enemy UG then it cannot end up in edge to edge contact.

Assuming a charging TuG finishes its charge in edge to edge contact with an enemy SUG, the following points are relevant:

1. Assuming the charger does not end up in a melee, the charger won't be able to do an M9 move in that turn (having charged).  The SuG will have an opportunity to move away.
2. If the charger is in melee, the charger might make an MF1 move in the movement phase to create a new file where the enemy SUG currently is. The enemy SuG is pushed back (4.I in the PDF edition, 9.3.I in the compendium edition).
3. The same MF1 move is possible at the end of the fighting phase, but in this instance the SuG is not pushed back (because push backs only happen in the movement phase).  This will initiate a melee in the following turn.  Note that the SuG would have had an opportunity to move away in the movement phase.

Please don't treat these as official clarifications.  They are posted to help understand the rules.

it doesn't address the issue of a charging enemy tug's side edge contacting the side edge of a sug. The rule is written as 'A SuG contacted in, or partially in, good going is dispersed by a charging TuG unless the TuG is within a base of breaking. The SuG is removed and the TuG's charge then continues its full distance.'

the sug isnt destroyed because its been charged and contacted by an enemy tug, its destroyed because its been contacted by a charging tug. there is no requirement for the sug to be the subject of or in the path of the charge, beyond a brush of side edges. Which I think was Laurence's point.

Regards
Matt