Quote from: martymagnificent on November 14, 2023, 10:53:01 PM
I don't consider legionaries a problem in general. The multiplier for exceptional is, however, clearly too low. There are cases where it is cheaper to be exceptional than superior melee expert! There's a reason most players will always take every exceptional they can get.

I read this and thought surely not so I got out the new 2024 points just to be sure and yes, most of the time Exceptional seems to be cheaper than Superior melee expert. This is a fairly hefty problem but one I have never looked at because other than the Meerkats I don't use exceptionals

Quote from: Hammy on November 15, 2023, 11:47:32 AM

Quote from: martymagnificent on November 14, 2023, 10:53:01 PM
I don't consider legionaries a problem in general. The multiplier for exceptional is, however, clearly too low. There are cases where it is cheaper to be exceptional than superior melee expert! There's a reason most players will always take every exceptional they can get.

I read this and thought surely not so I got out the new 2024 points just to be sure and yes, most of the time Exceptional seems to be cheaper than Superior melee expert. This is a fairly hefty problem but one I have never looked at because other than the Meerkats I don't use exceptionals

Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).

Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 15, 2023, 12:54:41 PM
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Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).

Do you mean there is no list within which the exceptionals are cheaper than the sup ME version of the same thing?

Or

There is no army with superior ME troops that could meet another army with the exceptional version of the same thing for cheaper?

There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive.  In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.

Richard

Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 15, 2023, 12:54:41 PM

Quote from: Hammy on November 15, 2023, 11:47:32 AM

Quote from: martymagnificent on November 14, 2023, 10:53:01 PM
I don't consider legionaries a problem in general. The multiplier for exceptional is, however, clearly too low. There are cases where it is cheaper to be exceptional than superior melee expert! There's a reason most players will always take every exceptional they can get.

I read this and thought surely not so I got out the new 2024 points just to be sure and yes, most of the time Exceptional seems to be cheaper than Superior melee expert. This is a fairly hefty problem but one I have never looked at because other than the Meerkats I don't use exceptionals

Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).

A bit of theory hammer on the spreadsheet has a number where it is true but with the possible troops that are actually in lists (I have checked most but not all the lists) where there is an option for superior ME or exceptional not ME but otherwise the same it seems that the exceptionals are slightly more expensive but still a bargain compared.

Exceptionnal spartans do cost less than sup spartans with melee expert and such cases do appear here and there

Quote from: badhabum on November 15, 2023, 08:07:17 PM
Exceptionnal spartans do cost less than sup spartans with melee expert and such cases do appear here and there

Exceptional Spartan hippeis (who have no ME) 170 points/base, Superior Spartiates with ME 163 points/base.

Whilst not cheaper the additional amount is small to the point of being more or less irrelevant.

Is there a reason not to just up the multiplier for exceptional? They are clearly too good value at the moment.

Martin

Well, it does seem to be what Richard is getting at with this reply 

Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 15, 2023, 03:43:29 PM
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive.  In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.

Richard

Currently the multiplier for Exceptionals is 1.7 compared to 1.4 for Superior.

What are the multipliers for ME and SSp?

There aren't any. They are a cost that is then multiplied by the quality multiplier.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 15, 2023, 03:43:29 PM
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive.  In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.

Richard

That formula says exceptional should be a multiplier of a little more than 1.87 for infantry and 1.92 for cavalry.

1.9 sounds good

Martin

Funny you should say that 

Quote from: LawrenceG on November 15, 2023, 11:24:07 PM

Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 15, 2023, 03:43:29 PM
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive.  In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.

Richard

That formula says exceptional should be a multiplier of a little more than 1.87 for infantry and 1.92 for cavalry.

The other benchmark you could use is the upgrade from superior to exceptional is the same in effect as upgrading from average to superior. Therefore the multiplier should be 1.4 x 1.4 = 1.96 .