Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 26, 2023, 09:36:08 AM

Quote from: philfigo on October 26, 2023, 09:16:56 AM
so I resume

CL vs WWG = 0 (no claim or cancelation)

CL vs all other = 6 (4 flank + 2 CL)

am I right?

What a tangled web we weave when we try to write wargames rules!
Personally, I agree with Nik in that I don't think CL should get the +2 vs Elephants hit in flank or rear.

This would be best expressed by re-phrasing the QRS to say "0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others cancelled by Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".
Using "cancelled" instead of "except" throughout the QRS would be clearer.

Would anyone object if that was the ruling....

Nik's arguing it is +2 in flank of elephants, I'm arguing it isnt and is 0 as its 'elephants'

as to wording , how about

"0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others but cancelled by frontally contacting standing** Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".

Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 26, 2023, 10:45:13 AM
as to wording , how about

"0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others but cancelled by frontally contacting standing** Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".

Not to be pedantic, but could that last bit not be construed as meaning that cancellation happens if front of CL contacts LSp ?

Maybe something like :
"0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others but cancelled by if fighting the front of standing to receive Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".

Best,
Antoine

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 25, 2023, 09:10:50 PM
IMO if the "0" is a cancellation effect, then it applies to El, BWg and the various foot. I think Matt is reading too much into the wording.

And I do believe the "0" is intended to be a cancellation effect from author discussion some time ago.

Which is a shame as I like the idea that CL always get a claim of 0 against nellies and wagons 

I agree with Nik that what applies to foot with long pointy stick must also apply to elephants and wagons because they all occupy the same place in the grammatical structure of the current wording.

Nik and RJC seem to agree that the +2 will apply in addition to the flank+4 based on current wording. I assume this will be the ruling at Derventio (could be quite a few elephants and charging lancers around) and other tournaments until the next rules update or official clarification.

What they would like the rule to be and how to word it to mean that  is a separate issue.

For the new QRS
perhaps the simplest solution is to put the sentence "Only BWg and elephant cancellations apply to flank or rear attacks" in the area below (with *; ** and S), rather than putting it in the reclamation line.

otherwise, you'll have to add it to every line where there are cancellations.
for example:
Foot Devastating Charger(S) = 0 vs. EL, or vs. CL in good going

this will also make it clear that there are no other cancellations on the flank than for Elephant and BWg

Thanks for all the contributions.   Please remember that cancellation claims only apply to the front (this is in the PDF edition QRS anyway).  Also remember that space on the QRS is always tight.

Charge Combat Preferred Claims

Troop Type                    Claim

Foot and BWg                All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
LSp*                             If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch; +1 vs others.
Pk*                               As LSp factors ... then +1 if in 4 ranks (3 ranks in Magna)
SSp                              +1 vs any.
DC (S)                          If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs any foot; 0 vs El, or vs CL in good going; +1 vs others.
2HCC                            +1 vs any foot.
PA                                +1 vs any.
IW                                +2 vs any.

Mounted and chariots     All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
CL* (S)                          0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp, foot PA or Pk".
LSp                              +1 vs any cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp or Pk.
MP* (S)                          +1 vs any mounted cancelled by CL or LSp.
SSp                              +1 vs any cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp, foot PA or Pk.
DC (S)                          If in 2 ranks themselves: 0 vs BWg, El; +1 vs others cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp or Pk.
El (S)                            +3 vs close foot that are tribal or formed; +2 vs other foot; +4 vs Cv, Cm or El; +5 vs Ch or BWg.

* not if affected or badly affected or vs barricades; ** standing to receive = not charged, countercharged or intercepted; (S) = possible shatter.


Melee combat preferred claims

Foot and BWg                All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
LSp*                             If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch; +1 vs others.
Pk*                               As LSp factors ... then +1 if in 3 ranks.
PA                                +1 vs Cv, Cm, Ch or El; +1 vs others if 2 ranks deep, BWg with PA 1 rank deep.
2HCC                            +2 vs Cv, Cm or Ch; +1 vs others.
ME                                +1 vs any, cancelled by El or Exp.

Mounted and chariots     All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
LSp                              +1 vs any.
MPA                              +1 vs any.
ME                                0 vs El; +1 vs others cancelled by 2+ deep LSp, Pk or shieldwall, all in good going.
El                                 +2 vs close foot that are tribal or formed; +1 vs other foot +3 vs Cv, Cm or El; +4 vs Ch or BWg.

* not if affected or badly affected or vs barricades; Shoves from characteristic or 2+ deep close foot in good going vs loose/skirmish foot.

-----------------------------------------------------
Now you can tell me where I have gone wrong!

I'll admit the other thing that has always confused me is why El get +4 (charge) or +3 (melee) vs El.  The only affect is if you hit the elephants in the flank or rear with elephants and in that case it is like double counting....  However I don't propose that as a rule change - it is just an observation.

Richard

All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front

this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims

I cannot help but feel that, as interesting as all this may be, the discussion is descending into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory. If the front of a file charges into the side  (flank) of any other unit, the hit unit self-evidently is NOT standing to receive a charge. Therefore, the unit charging into contact gets all its normal claims plus and bonus for flank or rear, and the unit that was hit in the flank gets nothing. I just don't see any confusion here.
My apologies if I have misunderstood the discussion, but I just don't see an issue.

Hello Wizard,

QRS states that "standing to receive = not charged, countercharged or intercepted". So as written, it does not forbid a flank-charged unit of claiming cancellation.

Now I obviously agree with you that there should be no cancellation if flank-charged, but I think that the rules should be as explicit as possible because of (i) English proficiency of non-native readers, (ii) cultural differences as to what is not said ("everything not allowed is forbidden" vs "everything not forbidden is allowed") and (iii) the tendency of some players to use any leeway to interpret rules as it benefits them.

So even if it is not the most glamorous discussion (clearly not  ), I think it must not be overlooked.

Best,
Antoine

Quote from: Jilu on October 26, 2023, 10:19:17 PM
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front

this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims

How about "To make a claim or to cancel a claim a file must be fighting to it's front."  Is that clearer?

Quote from: Wizard of Oz on October 26, 2023, 11:52:08 PM
I cannot help but feel that, as interesting as all this may be, the discussion is descending into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory. If the front of a file charges into the side  (flank) of any other unit, the hit unit self-evidently is NOT standing to receive a charge. Therefore, the unit charging into contact gets all its normal claims plus and bonus for flank or rear, and the unit that was hit in the flank gets nothing. I just don't see any confusion here.
My apologies if I have misunderstood the discussion, but I just don't see an issue.

I understand your feeling. It is a rare situation.  However there is some confusion for some people.  What I am trying to achieve is to make the rule as clear as possible without turning the rules into a tome the size of War and Peace.

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 27, 2023, 08:07:27 AM

Quote from: Jilu on October 26, 2023, 10:19:17 PM
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front

this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims

How about "To make a claim or to cancel a claim a file must be fighting to it's front."  Is that clearer?

Yes, I think

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 27, 2023, 08:12:11 AM
I understand your feeling. It is a rare situation.  However there is some confusion for some people.  What I am trying to achieve is to make the rule as clear as possible without turning the rules into a tome the size of War and Peace.
Richard

Indeed, the aim is not to have thousands of pages, but to have a clear rule, with simple sentences, without interpretations.
The new sentence is shorter and simpler than the old one.
2 successful goals, well done Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 27, 2023, 08:07:27 AM

Quote from: Jilu on October 26, 2023, 10:19:17 PM
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front

this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims

How about "To make a claim or to cancel a claim a file must be fighting to it's front."  Is that clearer?

"to claim or cancel a claim the file must fight to its front"

Sounds good to me.

Antoine

Should there be a new QRS for 2024, I would ask it to be downloadable in English  from the forum/internet site as it's a bit difficult to order them from continental Europe .

For now we are always asked to order from PSC but that's way too costly

Something like Brexit did not help !