Hi,
     I was wondering why the javelins carried by Almughavars in Anatolia are reclassified as impact weapons?  In real life they defeated several armies
with a large mounted component but they cannot do that under these rules as mounted will always evade and impact weapons need to contact the enemy.  I have read several accounts of battles involving the Catalan company and they indicate that they would throw their javelins so as to disorder the enemy before charging in to fight hand to hand.

Geoff Marshall

I think this is a "gets the right effect" classifications - the capabilities are not hard and fast after all. It allows them to be good all-rounders against a whole range of infantry and cavalry which they appeared to have been.

Impact Weapon can incorporate short range missiles in the charge as well within the claim they receive, it just isn't an explicit separate action.

I would also disagree with the idea that they cannot defeat mounted armies. My Seljuqs of Rum, for example, have suffered badly against the Catalan Company in Anatolia (which was the really successful phase) - the Fleet of Foot makes a big difference to the interaction; you need to be aggressive though (just like they were) and a bit of practice with the army.

I also have a feeling, but please correct me if I am wrong, that the occasions the Catalans beat mounted troops the mounted were not in a good position - the Catalans got the jump on them.

I have floated the idea that they could also be Shoot and Charge javelin. It met with some consideration.....
It might even better reflect their ability to deliver a missile volley, useful mainly against UP mounted, rather than tough foot.
Thoughts?
Lance.

I think Javelin and Shoot and Charge is a more realistic option.  The Lusitanians have the same type of javelin (iron with a barbed point) but they have not been changed to impact weapon.  As for terrain against the Turks in most of the battles (Aulax for example) the Turks were on ground of their own choosing.  At the moment with impact weapon and being unprotected while being fired on by green dice you are relying on your opponent having bad luck.

Geoff

But to be clearer I did mean shoot and charge only javelin on top of existing options.
They seemed to be seriously tough warriors?
Lance.

Agree, they need to stay as Impact Weapon regardless.

I think that shoot and charge only javelin plus impact weapon is the best and most realistic option.  As they stand they are very good against foot but against mounted they do not stand much chance of winning the game.  If they are aggressive they are loose order foot charging mounted which nullifies the impact weapon and mounted have the option to break off.

Geoff

Indeed, it would seem better to fit their historical performance against horse archers.
We always need to be aware of either making troops too good or too expensive, but I dont believe this would do either?
Lance.

But they are flexible, so they do not have to charge mounted in loose, right? OTOH I love my almoghavars, so go ahead and give 'em charge only javelins?

Quote from: AntiokosIII on August 17, 2023, 04:14:19 PM
But they are flexible, so they do not have to charge mounted in loose, right? OTOH I love my almoghavars, so go ahead and give 'em charge only javelins?

Foot are never forced to charge mounted.

If they do not charge they just stand there and die if facing an horse archer army.  Also (And I may be wrong) I thought fleet of foot was reserved for unprotected loose order troops.  I like my Mugs but I could never take the Anatolian list.

The vast majority of Fleet of Foot are indeed Unprotected - I think Swiss pikemen in the Later Swiss list are the only exception.

IMO the Catalan Company in Anatolia is the best version.

And so what do people think about adding charge only javelin? As an option.
Lance.

Would seem pretty generous and a little 'double dippy'. Their missile throwing is already represented by their impact weapon. Even Romans lose Impact weapon when they get dart. Didn't Romans and ancient Spaniards carry a variety of Javelins along with their 'pilums' as well? None of them get a javelin with their impact weapon.

The Almughavars are far from unique in carrying a variety of spears.

Martin

Agree Marty