Quote from: Alduin on September 01, 2022, 02:44:28 PM
Also i would love to add as it stung me greatly. I personally think that thureo should be loose/long spear/unskilled javelin  BUT the version proposed by lionheart of them being sort of "frontline skirmishers" so loose/short spear/experienced javelin is also very reasonable and even if i would like to i wouldnt be able to argue with that interpretation.

And I fully agree and I know I am not alone in this.  Thureo should be loose/long spear/unskilled javelin or loose/short spear/experienced javelin . The choice could even be left to the player as it is the case of the Alexandrian  hypaspist .

I think there are enough clues and still no one has show me one line from one historian describing Thureophoroi fighting as hoplites what they are now in MEG on the contrary

Would losse order SP or LS/ experienced or unskilled jav, protected and FLEET of FOOT not be an acceptable MEG solution ?

Quote from: badhabum on September 07, 2022, 12:21:36 PM
Would losse order SP or LS/ experienced or unskilled jav, protected and FLEET of FOOT not be an acceptable MEG solution ?

Not happening.

Well why ? what would the solution be to the fact that obviously they are not close order long spear infantry not simple skirmishing infantry

Quote from: badhabum on September 07, 2022, 04:15:37 PM
Well why ? what would the solution be to the fact that obviously they are not close order long spear infantry not simple skirmishing infantry

I don't understand why you don't think they might not be close order spearmen.

Loose order, protected, fleet of foot would be a devastating new troop type, as would Experienced Javelin and Long Spear.  Combining both would be a troop type which moves faster than any other protected loose foot, would shoot with experienced javelins and get long spear combat factors.  This would unbalance them compared to pretty much every other classical troop type (think of Spanish, Gauls, Thracians, Illyrians, Italians) with a few specific exceptions (Impact Weapon, Melee Expert legionaries or Pike in 4 ranks)...

You have raised this point so many times before - I have provided my view on several occasions.  I won't be entertaining any more discussion on this topic.

Richard

When I said I won't be entertaining any more discussion on this topic I meant it.  This topic is closed.

Message from Simon Hall:

All,

I have read the entire stream so let me offer some closing comment. I do think we have the right answer both from a historical and game point of view.  As many have said late on its hard to argue with RJC's final proposal.  At the end of the day someone has to make a call, and RJC has done so and the answer is a good one.

Let us take a step back.  There has been much evidence provided that suggests a lighter role was probable for Thureuphoroi.   My strong suspicion is that they were trained to fight like hoplites in the open or to take lighter equipment and fight in terrain.  There are some clear no nos in MeG but we have the plus of lots of options.  Fleet of foot is mainly for unprotected troops moving fast. Swiss infantry are an exception based on their known behaviour.  So not that.  But the team has listened and adapted a terrain variant for Greek lists.  This is surely a progressive step forward to be celebrated.

I find the option to take them in hoplite form or redefine them as terrain troops as SSp, Exp Jav a fine addition to the Greek lists and very plausible.  So RJC and Nik have done their job on this well and found a good answer, without straying into dangerous territory. 
I have little doubt the Thureoporoi could bring long spears to battle and form solid lines working together and be effectively Hoplites with different shields.  But I also have little doubt that if needing to fight in terrain they would leave long spears behind as being an encumbrance and focus more on short spears and javelins. So I do think this is a good answer overall. It gives some very useful terrain troops as Theurophoroi which did not previosuly exist.  Try redesigning a few lists with this available and it does make quite a difference.

So a time to come together around a good answer and stop arguing about finer nuances about which there are many opinions but little to go on. What is solid to go on is some form of lighter equipped terrain role and this has been positively taken on board by the list team.  Job done.  Move on to the next debate and enjoy rolling skulls.

Simon