Hello All, I was hoping to get some advice from those in the know. I'll set the scene; a Tug of Persian Sparabara has a SuG of skirmishing bowmen in base to base contact to their front, they are charged by Hoplites 3 base widths distant from the Sparabara.
A) If they runaway, they fire down one colour and move their full distance but end facing away from the Hoplites but behind the Sparabara having been able to complete the full move (4 base widths - their depth {3 ranks} - Sparabara depth {2 ranks} = 2 and a half base widths. Correct?
B) The Sparabara can then fire as usual at the charging Hoplites. Correct?
If instead the decision was taken to Skirmish, even without a throw of a 1 or a 2 on the VMD the SuG would be unable to get all the way through the supporting troops but referring to 9.3 H 4.2 if there was room on the other side they could be moved all the way through.
C) The Sparabara can then fire as usual at the charging Hoplites. Correct?
If, however, they do throw a 1 on the VMD and therefore do not move at all and are therefore contacted by the charging Hoplites, they are destroyed and removed and the Hoplites proceed with their charge.
D) The Sparabara can then fire as usual at the charging Hoplites. Correct?
E) A unit with Integral Shooters instead would be able to claim their up one in all of the above circumstances. Correct?
I think all of this is as it should be but I would like to be sure, thanks for any and all assistance.

Some bits right and some bits possibly not.

Both Run Away and Skirmish moves have a VMD - you do not automatically move your full distance with a Run Away.

For both Run Away and Skirmish moves 9.3 H 4.2 applies and as long as they even partially enter another UG they pass through entirely as long as there is room as both Run Away and Skirmish are outcome moves.

Shooting is more complex and you appear to be making errors. It is an area a lot of players fall down on as it does require careful reading of the rules.

The key is the Path of Charge concept - this is what you actually shoot at in effect and you need to determine where this goes to work out who shoots at the chargers.

I have a picture I used recently when explaining this which may be useful.



The picture shows some elephants charging at some enemy skirmishers with archers behind them. I have (crudely) indicated the Path of Charge by the red rectangle - note it does extend all the way to the front of the archers (it is crude). The skirmishers obviously have to evade.

Shooting is done "at" the Path of Charge before the skirmishers are moved.

The important thing here is that the Path of Charge goes past, but not through, the evading troops so the evaders create a "shadow" which cannot be shot at.

In the case in the picture all the archers have the Path of Charge within their shooting arc so could shoot at the elephants.

Now if the skirmishers in this picture had been in base contact with the archers I would say that the archers could not draw a line from both corners of the shooting base to the Path of Charge (which is in effect the target base in this case) and so could not shoot - in the picture there is a gap and so they could. (caveat, I have asked for clarification on this and will post here if it turns out I am wrong)

Nik,

Suppose there was an enemy shooter within 1 BW behind the Elephants facing the rear of the Elephants, are these new shooters also in the path, so eligible to shoot ?
Thx,
Martin

Quote from: Ambiorix on January 28, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Nik,

Suppose there was an enemy shooter within 1 BW behind the Elephants facing the rear of the Elephants, are these new shooters also in the path, so eligible to shoot ?
Thx,
Martin

Yes they would.  As would any enemy shooters within 1 BW on the flank of the elephants and facing them.

Quote from: Ambiorix on January 28, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Nik,

Suppose there was an enemy shooter within 1 BW behind the Elephants facing the rear of the Elephants, are these new shooters also in the path, so eligible to shoot ?
Thx,
Martin

Can I mention the addition to the Clarifications that went in the last published version in October 2021:

"DOES THE "CHARGE PATH" OF AN UG INCLUDE THE INITIAL FOOTPRINT OF THE UG BEFORE IT IS MOVED? Yes it  does.  Thus  the  UG  is  part  of  the  area  used  to  decide  who  can  shoot  at  the  chargers.  The  diagrams  on  pages 120,  125,  and  130  should  have  included  the  charging  UG  within  the  grey  box  indicating  path  of  charge. "

It was highlighted in yellow along with all the other new additions.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 28, 2022, 06:59:32 AM
I have (crudely) indicated the Path of Charge...

Crude, yet effective. This was a very helpful post Nik.

I'd note that the bit about drawing lines from the shooter has led to quite a bit of discussion "in another place" and may well result in some clarification when those discussions come to a resolution.

Thank you for your detailed response. Firstly, my apologies re the VMD for a runaway, I do know that, my only excuse is a sudden brainsnap!
It  has been made clear to me that if I have the rear bases of the SuG touching the front edge of the front bases of the TuG that there cane be no firing, and I think that that is fair enough. Probably a bit greedy to want two bites of the cherry regarding missile  fire in those circumstances. I had sought to minimize their risk of being caught.
Regarding the illustration you have provided, I have one or two queries. If everything was in the same position except that there were 9 bases rather than 6, would this stop the TuG from firing? That is, is it the existance of the two long rectangles on either side of the SuG that allows firing?
Or is it the case that because there is a gap between the back of the SuG and the front of the TuG that gives a clear space that the path of the charging elephants will enter that allows the firing to take place?
From the illustration I am not quite sure why the middle file of archers in the TuG can fire.
I must express my appreciation for the time you devote to not just my questions, but to so many others. I find them very useful.
Regards

With the caveat that some things raised by this thread are under discussion ...

Quote from: Wizard of Oz on January 29, 2022, 09:30:32 AM
Regarding the illustration you have provided, I have one or two queries. If everything was in the same position except that there were 9 bases rather than 6, would this stop the TuG from firing? That is, is it the existance of the two long rectangles on either side of the SuG that allows firing?

It is the fact that the path of charge as illustrated by the long rectangles are within 1 BW of the archers that allows the shooting. If the skirmisher UG was larger and blocked off those rectangles then the archers would not have the opportunity to shoot.

Quote
From the illustration I am not quite sure why the middle file of archers in the TuG can fire.

The middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.

Quote
From the illustration I am not quite sure why the middle file of archers in the TuG can fire.

The middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.
[/quote]

Euh...oops, I thought the middle could shoot as it was in the arc of the (2)outer base(s) - that can shoot because in the path - but I presume 'within 1 BW' has the same effect. So in fact, to summarize and keep it simple, all can shoot IF facing within 1 BW of a path, no arcs involved. Correct?

Thanks again, I look forward to reading the results of the ongoing discussions.

QuoteThe middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.

I would aks you you you are sure of that as per 9.4, K.2 it seems that the middle one could not shoot .

Which might also be a problem for the 2 other bases as they do not have a complete line of sight at the beginning of the charge . I suppose that is the discussion you have . IMO none of the bowmen in your exemple should shoot as per the above mentionned paragraph ( pg 130 )

Quote from: badhabum on January 29, 2022, 12:09:19 PM

QuoteThe middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.

I would aks you you you are sure of that as per 9.4, K.2 it seems that the middle one could not shoot .

Which might also be a problem for the 2 other bases as they do not have a complete line of sight at the beginning of the charge . I suppose that is the discussion you have . IMO none of the bowmen in your exemple should shoot as per the above mentionned paragraph ( pg 130 )

Actually, according to page 130 they do shoot.  The discussion is whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) applies in the charge phase and whether it refers to the target base before it has been moved.

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 29, 2022, 12:47:56 PM
The discussion is whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) applies in the charge phase and whether it refers to the target base before it has been moved.

Feel free to comment on this 

Well...the shooting is actually taken to occur at 1BW, so you shouldn't need to have line of fire or even visibility of the starting position.

It does feel perhaps wrong that you should have to face two lots of shooting on the way in...was it historical for shooters to have skirmishers operating in front of them in this fashion? I'm not sure it was.

A compromise might be that if line of fire is not maintained throughout the charge, downgrade by one dice colour?