Hy in the caracteristics list I found "spear protection" ...so what is spear protection ?

It is from a Special Rule in the 2 Nikeforian lists and is explained there.

ok, not sure I understand fully the intend here :  "Spear Protection characteristic cancels Charge Phase Preferred Claims of Cv, Ch and Cm."   So what is different with the previous Long Spear ?   Or is meant that troops with Spear protection have this advantage even when (counter)charging themselves / intercepting, or am I missing something ?
Thx for clarification,

Are there any plans to expand this rule to other mixed shooter units with front-rank-only longspears (such as the Tsu and Lu units of Early and Late Spring & Autumn Chinese lists in Mandate of Heaven), or is that waiting for the 2023 revisions to be sure the Spear Protection characteristic is working as intended?

No plans to extend it in the 2022 lists, these have been published.  Wouldn't rule it out for consideration for some armies in 2023.

Richard

Quote from: Ambiorix on December 13, 2021, 11:25:45 PM
ok, not sure I understand fully the intend here :  "Spear Protection characteristic cancels Charge Phase Preferred Claims of Cv, Ch and Cm."   So what is different with the previous Long Spear ?   Or is meant that troops with Spear protection have this advantage even when (counter)charging themselves / intercepting, or am I missing something ?
Thx for clarification,

This is my error.  It is meant to be only when standing to receive a charge.  I will add to errata and we will re-issue soon.
Apologies.

Richard

It cancelled the preferred claims of cav.
All the claims?
So a superior knight charging lancer devastating loose the charging lancer claim the devastating and the superior or only charging lancer and (?) devastating ?
Thanks for confirming
Cheers

Quote from: Rino on December 14, 2021, 11:38:58 AM
It cancelled the preferred claims of cav.
All the claims?
So a superior knight charging lancer devastating loose the charging lancer claim the devastating and the superior or only charging lancer and (?) devastating ?
Thanks for confirming
Cheers

Look at your QRS.  Preferred claims are listed separately from general claims.

Richard

Only superior would count

Quote from: lionheartrjc on December 14, 2021, 07:28:32 AM

Quote from: Ambiorix on December 13, 2021, 11:25:45 PM
ok, not sure I understand fully the intend here :  "Spear Protection characteristic cancels Charge Phase Preferred Claims of Cv, Ch and Cm."   So what is different with the previous Long Spear ?   Or is meant that troops with Spear protection have this advantage even when (counter)charging themselves / intercepting, or am I missing something ?
Thx for clarification,

This is my error.  It is meant to be only when standing to receive a charge.  I will add to errata and we will re-issue soon.
Apologies.

Richard

Ok, so it is exactly the same effect as 1 rank Long Spear (which was in the previous version), so am still puzzled what we are trying to 'fix' with this new characteristic...

It means that because the troops do not have the LSp capability that they can no longer be deployed with the spearmen 2 deep and get LSp claims.

But why as they did sometimes deploy with more LS to the front as the rear ranks would go forward to help if need be ..it is very strange ? I am really unhappy with this . Also if you do it specially for the Nikephorian Byzantines why not all similar mixed units . What makes them so "special"  ?

Quote from: Ambiorix on December 14, 2021, 05:53:15 PM
Ok, so it is exactly the same effect as 1 rank Long Spear (which was in the previous version), so am still puzzled what we are trying to 'fix' with this new characteristic...

It also lets them price it differently than standard two-rank-compatible long spear.
At present, it's much cheaper (+8 pts/average base instead of 21 pts/average base).

Thing is this spear protection does not work against infantry. So is it a downgrade ?
Towards the old longspears yes as they lose a +1 against infantry
cost longspear base is 126 vs 113 for spear protection,  is spear protection to expensive ?

If they were given short spear instead cost would have been 112

Spear protection does cancel charging lancers and devastating chargers against cavalry wich Shortspear does not.

It is an interesting new characteristic.

There is the option to add shieldwall to represent the Menlavoi but it is useless as the spear protection cancels Charging lancer and devastating chargers bonusses so it cancel the shatter /shove too 

Basicaly it makes the Skutatoi defensive units instead of allpurpose units.

it does seem like it gives the right feeling  in a period where most enemies were cavalry based  :

Tulunid and Ikhshidid; Bedouin Dynasties; Early Fatamid
Egyptian; Early Serbian; Early Croatian; Lombard
Principalities; Bagratid Armenian; Nikephorian Byzantine;
Norman; Early Holy Roman Empire; First Bulgarian Empire;
Pecheneg; Rus; Early Hungarian; Georgian


interesting but something feels wrong about the Menlavoi.

For the rest, there is the option Longspear/integral shooters but less fun than 2 front rank LS and 2 ranks of Bows i fully agree

Quote from: Jilu on December 15, 2021, 05:24:14 AM
Thing is this spear protection does not work against infantry. So is it a downgrade ?
Towards the old longspears yes as they lose a +1 against infantry

Remember that mixed-shooter scutatoi units (or "shootatoi" if you prefer) were classed with only 1 rank of spears— they never had that +1 claim vs foot to begin with. (When used as intended, anyway.)

TBH, knocking out all weapon claims of charging cavalry is pretty boss for 8 points. Compares quite favorably to integral shooters if you're holding off cavalry— blocks up to three claims from heavy lancers, and probably two claims from any other mounted that you couldn't just drive off or smash with your Tagmata.