Bit of a weird one here.

In the Qin army (early Asia, Waring States and Han Dynasty, pgs 14-15) there is an army-wide Optional Special Rule, which begins:

QuoteOPTIONAL SPECIAL RULE: Applies to Qin troops with the Devastating Chargers characteristic, either all or none.

(The rule then goes on to define the effects on those units.)


My question is: what does the rule mean by "Qin troops?"
Is it referring specifically to Close Fighters (incl. conscript close fighters and elite close fighters), or does it refer to all Qin UGs of any description with the Devastating Charge characteristic?

The later interpretation has some odd effects on the Conscripted Levies unit, and potentially very strange effects on Qin chariots which choose to take their optional DC characteristic.


Thank you for the ruling here, and sorry for the pedantry!

Quote from: Doomsmile on October 01, 2021, 08:28:15 PM
Bit of a weird one here.

In the Qin army (early Asia, Waring States and Han Dynasty, pgs 14-15) there is an army-wide Optional Special Rule, which begins:

QuoteOPTIONAL SPECIAL RULE: Applies to Qin troops with the Devastating Chargers characteristic, either all or none.

(The rule then goes on to define the effects on those units.)


My question is: what does the rule mean by "Qin troops?"
Is it referring specifically to Close Fighters (incl. conscript close fighters and elite close fighters), or does it refer to all Qin UGs of any description with the Devastating Charge characteristic?

The later interpretation has some odd effects on the Conscripted Levies unit, and potentially very strange effects on Qin chariots which choose to take their optional DC characteristic.


Thank you for the ruling here, and sorry for the pedantry!

as the subsequent line is 'When they declare a charge they become Unprotected but gain the Fleet of Foot and Melee Expert characteristics (and can declare the charge at skirmish movement distance)'

fleet of foot is only applicable to foot so excludes mounted from the special rule and 'become unprotected' excludes the conscripts as they are already unprotected.

though yes it could be made more explicit.

Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 01, 2021, 08:59:40 PM

Quote from: Doomsmile on October 01, 2021, 08:28:15 PM
Bit of a weird one here.

In the Qin army (early Asia, Waring States and Han Dynasty, pgs 14-15) there is an army-wide Optional Special Rule, which begins:

QuoteOPTIONAL SPECIAL RULE: Applies to Qin troops with the Devastating Chargers characteristic, either all or none.

(The rule then goes on to define the effects on those units.)


My question is: what does the rule mean by "Qin troops?"
Is it referring specifically to Close Fighters (incl. conscript close fighters and elite close fighters), or does it refer to all Qin UGs of any description with the Devastating Charge characteristic?

The later interpretation has some odd effects on the Conscripted Levies unit, and potentially very strange effects on Qin chariots which choose to take their optional DC characteristic.


Thank you for the ruling here, and sorry for the pedantry!

as the subsequent line is 'When they declare a charge they become Unprotected but gain the Fleet of Foot and Melee Expert characteristics (and can declare the charge at skirmish movement distance)'

fleet of foot is only applicable to foot so excludes mounted from the special rule and 'become unprotected' excludes the conscripts as they are already unprotected.

though yes it could be made more explicit.

But the list says "all or none". So if you do it, all troops who are DC must make this change. I would say that includes the chariots (if you don't want it, don't make them DC) and the conscripts.

QuoteI would say that includes the chariots

No as chariots cannot have the fleet of foot characteristic

Quoteand the conscripts

If they have DC

Quote from: badhabum on October 20, 2021, 03:45:48 PM

QuoteI would say that includes the chariots

No as chariots cannot have the fleet of foot characteristic

Can't recall anything in the FoF rule that says they can't.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 20, 2021, 05:05:38 PM

Quote from: badhabum on October 20, 2021, 03:45:48 PM

QuoteI would say that includes the chariots

No as chariots cannot have the fleet of foot characteristic

Can't recall anything in the FoF rule that says they can't.

It would be fun to have DC chariots moving as mounted SUGs

Oh dear. This is what I was afraid of.
I'll admit, I had been not-so-secretly hoping for an "obviously this just means Close Fighters" and that would be the end of it.

Quote from: badhabum on October 20, 2021, 03:45:48 PM

Quoteand the conscripts

If they have DC

Devastating Charge is, in fact, all they have.
(Poor/Unprotected, DC, no weapon).
While a unit this weak sprouting free ME (and fleet) is hardly going to set the world on fire, it does feel a bit more like an exploit than anything else.

Quote from: badhabum on October 20, 2021, 07:28:23 PM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 20, 2021, 05:05:38 PM

Quote from: badhabum on October 20, 2021, 03:45:48 PM

QuoteI would say that includes the chariots

No as chariots cannot have the fleet of foot characteristic

Can't recall anything in the FoF rule that says they can't.

It would be fun to have DC chariots moving as mounted SUGs

Yup! Fleet of Foot doesn't say mounted can't take it.

But... while I would be more amused than most to have a team of four-horse chariots go-carting through a woods at 4BW speed (best. ambush. ever.), those speeds are listed as being specifically for skirmishing cavalry (and camelry).

I can't help but feel that most reasonable players in a tournament would summon the ref immediately if these things came flying out of a gully as an ambush.

The intention is that it applies only to close fighters.

I have revised the 2022 lists to say "Qin close fighters with the Devastating Chargers characteristic". 

Richard

Thank you, Richard!!!
(The suspension on my chariots are grateful! )