Is the 1140 start date wrong for this list? Not sure what evidence is for this date.

Not sure the Early Beyliks lists is right for Dorylaeum in 1097, for example, and the narrative in both the First Crusade list and Rum list mentions the Sultanate of Rum being around at time of First Crusade.

When you can call the Seljuqs in Anatolia a "sultanate" is a moot question. Their Christian enemies often called them that before they had any formal caliphal recognition, possibly due to ignorance of the formalities. Likewise, their Muslim rivals often omitted the title to downplay their importance.

The 1140 date is one I suggested - and over the weekend (as I was using the army) I was trying to recall why I settled upon that date and for the life of me couldn't. It will be something to do with when they started showing the trappings of a Perso-Islamic state rather than being more of a tribal-Turkic state, but as to why that specific date??? Could easily be when they are first recorded as having some Christian mercenaries to be honest. In the end it is arbitrary as these things often are.

Before that the Early Beyliks covers the Seljuqs in Anatolia. What do you think is not right for Dorylaeum?

Thanks Nik

As you'll know, the Sultanate of Rum seceded from the Great Seljuk Empire under Suleiman ibn Qutalmish in 1077, who set up his capital at Nicea. As you say 1140 is arbitrary, whereas 1077 is at least the traditional date of the founding of the Rum Sultanate. If it's the Frankish mercenaries that are driving it, I'd just date restricting them from 1140 and then date the Rum from late C11th. Even 1092, when the other Seljuk satellite lists start following fragmentation of the main Seljuk power, would be better.

To me the Beylik list seems better for the Turcomans tribes and the likes of the Damishmenids, whereas restricting the Seljuks to 1 TUG of 6 mamluks is a bit mean for members of the Seljuk royal family, albeit scions.  0-12 feels better for Dorylaeum and still allows the majority of the army to be Turcomans.

Anyway, well played using the Rum at Cross and Crescent and I look forward to hearing all about it on the podcast!

Quote from: Dunhelm on August 23, 2021, 03:33:27 PM
To me the Beylik list seems better for the Turcomans tribes and the likes of the Damishmenids, whereas restricting the Seljuks to 1 TUG of 6 mamluks is a bit mean for members of the Seljuk royal family, albeit scions.  0-12 feels better for Dorylaeum and still allows the majority of the army to be Turcomans.

Personally I feel any mamluk at Dorylaeum is generous as I've not seen anything that suggested that the Seljuqs at the time had the "infrastructure" of a Perso-Islamic state that would support them, that arrived later from my reading on the Seljuq's of Rum.

Whilst Suleiman and his descendants were of the Seljuq family they were essentially in rebellion against the Great Seljuq sultan and were based on the periphery of the Seljuq world and still basically tribal in structure. They did not mint their own coinage until the mid C12th for example and did not undertake the usual Muslim ruler building and propagandistic activities until then as well. In from the end of the C11th for 30 or so years they were in an inferior position in Anatolia to the Danishmedids.

My take on it anyway - and it would be fair to say that I have been influenced by authors who take a view somewhat different to the modern Turkish view of the early Seljuqs

Quote
Anyway, well played using the Rum at Cross and Crescent and I look forward to hearing all about it on the podcast!

I'm sure I'll have something to say 

I see the point. Have you read Peacock's book on Seljuks of Rum?

And don't know if you spotted that Whitby's book on Justinian is out:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wars-Justinian-I-Michael-Whitby/dp/1526760886

Quote from: Dunhelm on August 23, 2021, 08:46:14 PM
I see the point. Have you read Peacock's book on Seljuks of Rum?

Read his one on the Great Seljuqs - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07BH39F1Y/ - and this one with Sara Nur Yildiz - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seljuks-Anatolia-Society-Medieval-Library-ebook/dp/B07PBPXVNH/ - but I don't think I have one by him specifically on the Seljuqs of Rum. Do you have a link?

Also this one by Songul Mecit which was interesting if limited on actual military stuff - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rum-Seljuqs-Evolution-Dynasty-Routledge-ebook/dp/B00H47KT9E/

Quote
And don't know if you spotted that Whitby's book on Justinian is out:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wars-Justinian-I-Michael-Whitby/dp/1526760886

I hadn't. Suspect I'll be getting it fairly soon - thanks for the heads up