How does for example a spear unit of 9 bases in 3 ranks turn 90 degrees :
Normally it should end up 2 BW wide, but this means one of the files would be now 5 deep which is not allowed.
So does a 3x3 turn end up again as a 3x3 ?
Thx for the clarification.

Yes. See page 97 A 4.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 02, 2021, 06:25:25 AM
Yes. See page 97 A 4.

Yes but here is the real point :

9 bases TUG/UG so 1,5 BW deep, it turns 90° , 2 bases wide, and 4 and 5 bases deep .

As the formation is illegal, it must expand to make the formation legal so put a base on one of the sides.

That is simple but : ONR base and no more as the formation is lega or may it put a whole file so as to be once more 3 bases wide and 3 deep or does it remain 2 files of 4 and one of one ! So conform at minima ( one base ) or at maxima ( more bases ). It is important for shooters and for LS, pikes

Ambiorix is a firm believer of big bataillons 

and thus prefer to turn 3 wide .

Quote from: badhabum on May 02, 2021, 09:38:13 AM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 02, 2021, 06:25:25 AM
Yes. See page 97 A 4.

9 bases TUG/UG so 1,5 BW deep, it turns 90° , 2 bases wide, and 4 and 5 bases deep .

Why would you turn it into a file of 4 and a file of 5? Suely the front two ranks turn into 1 file making that 6 deep and the rear rank turns into the a second file which is 3 deep. So even if you insist that only the bases in excess 4 move to a new file then it will always be two deep. Personally, I do not agree that it is "move the fewest number of bases to make it legal": I believe it is "expand by file(s) until no file is of illegal depth and that any newly created file may be of any number of bases up to 4".

I believe this based on mixed UGs being placed in a formation where the previous front rank is the new front rank. So if a Mixed TUG of Polearm front rank, shooting ranks 2 and 3, turns 90^o then the PA become the new front rank: if it was just a mechanical transpose (with single base correction of depth illegalities) one file would have 3 polearms and a shooter behind and then you would have a 3 deep shooter and a 2 deep shooter.

The shuffling of bases required to get the correct new formation implies to me that it is not a mechanical transpose but a genuine formation change to point in a new direction: thus a 3x3 may end up as 3x3 (or I suppose a 4-3-2 if the owner so chooses)

Yes.

I think the point here is that when you turn 90 degrees and your formation is no longer legal, you expand files to permit a legal formation.  So if I am 9 bases, 3 wide x 3 deep, my initial turn is into two files.  As this cannot create a legal formation (as no file can be more than 4 ranks deep) I am obliged to expand to 3 files wide.  Commonly this would be 3 wide x 3 deep, but there is no obligation to be 3 wide x 3 deep.  It is also permitted to have 2 files 4 deep and 1 file 1 deep.  This is still a legal formation.  The file that is created may be placed to either side of the two files created from turning.   What you cannot do as part of the turn is expand to four files wide as that is not necessary to create a legal formation.

In the process of turning the files may redress.  So if you have a mixed TuG of Huscarls, Select Fyrd and Great Fyrd, turning 90 degrees, the Huscarls would normally be placed in front, the Select Fyrd in the second rank and the Great Fyrd in the third rank.   Commonly if you had a mixed TuG of 3 knights and 3 sergeants, 2 wide and 3 deep, they would turn 90 degrees into three files (because the depth before turning is more than 2BW), and you would place the knights in front.  If they then turn 90 degrees back to the original facing, they will be 2 wide and 3 deep again (with one file containing two knights).

Richard

Ok a bit more advantagous for 9 bases UGs but so it is