Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on April 29, 2021, 06:11:02 AM
Loophole in wording noted. And applauded as we want to tighten then always.
Answer in the wider stream.  Which means no as you will see.

Si

Thanks Simon

Thanks simon but what about the speed of Ugs in a wheel .;can different UGs move at different speed as Ambiorix asked ?

It is possible for the outer UG to move faster than an inner UG and for that inner UG still not go faster than it's own speed but the outer one can move quicker

Quote from: badhabum on April 29, 2021, 07:14:51 PM
Thanks simon but what about the speed of Ugs in a wheel .;can different UGs move at different speed as Ambiorix asked ?

It is possible for the outer UG to move faster than an inner UG and for that inner UG still not go faster than it's own speed but the outer one can move quicker

I think Simon made this clear, the block wheel as a block.  So clearly a UG on the outside will move faster than the UG in the inside.  But they must all wheel through the same angle, facing in the same direction. 

Richard

OK but to my original question what would be the official response (I assume YES to 1 and NO to 2 ?) :


1.    in a block wheel for example of close and loose cav, the latter can still move its max distance of 5 BW if on the outer side of the wheel, while the close cav remains under 4BW movement when both remaining aligned?

2.   It is allowed during a block move to 'drop off' slower UGs (and/or SUGs ?) and even loose contact with the rest of the block, provided of course they all moved in the same direction ?

[/quote]

oops, sorry, didn't notice there was a second page to this post, so missed the responses.
I see 1. has been answered (YES), so quid the 'dropping off', is that allowed ?

Thx

Simon's response seems clear to me, you take the entire block as a rectangle and move them, so no, you can't drop off UGs. 

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 30, 2021, 06:48:25 AM
Simon's response seems clear to me, you take the entire block as a rectangle and move them, so no, you can't drop off UGs. 

Richard

Droping is clear max speed is unclear

If my outer UG is loose cavalry it has a movement speed of 5 MU, next to it I have a close mounted that moves 4 MU . I make a wheel .

What is the max speed of the wheel knowing that if you move the outer loose UG 5 MU , the inner close  UG will move 4 MU

So both do respect the max move limitation, are in the rectangle but os in modern drill ( and perhaps ancient ) the outer UG moves faster

So mays it tmove 5 MU/4MU from the outer UG ?

Quote from: badhabum on April 30, 2021, 08:20:40 AM

Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 30, 2021, 06:48:25 AM
Simon's response seems clear to me, you take the entire block as a rectangle and move them, so no, you can't drop off UGs. 

Richard

Droping is clear max speed is unclear

If my outer UG is loose cavalry it has a movement speed of 5 MU, next to it I have a close mounted that moves 4 MU . I make a wheel .

What is the max speed of the wheel knowing that if you move the outer loose UG 5 MU , the inner close  UG will move 4 MU

So both do respect the max move limitation, are in the rectangle but os in modern drill ( and perhaps ancient ) the outer UG moves faster

So mays it tmove 5 MU/4MU from the outer UG ?

so the block can move faster than the slowest UG in the block?

Try and you will be able to see that an outer UG could move 5 MU, stay in permanent contact with the UG near it, stay in the same rectangle but the inner UG moves 4 MU even less ;

So Ambiorix's question remain unanswered

From the OP

QuoteThe rules says
"No files in the block may move further than their maximum move distance, and all
TuGs follow the same action, limited by the speed of the slowest if the move keeps
them in the same block throughout.

So if the block wheels as a single entity then it is limited by the speed of the slowest.

Quote from: LawrenceG on May 01, 2021, 09:15:18 AM
From the OP

QuoteThe rules says
"No files in the block may move further than their maximum move distance, and all
TuGs follow the same action, limited by the speed of the slowest if the move keeps
them in the same block throughout.

So if the block wheels as a single entity then it is limited by the speed of the slowest.

No necessarily

The Ugs are limited by their max move distance
The move must be uniform, the same move in the same rectangle
You are limited by the speed of the slowest : what does that mean ? that you move at the speed of the slowest or that the slowest may not move more than it's maximum speed ?

When making a straight forward blok move it is easy

Try a pivot move

Put a 5 speed UG at the point you will move, put a slower UG as pivot , move the 5 MU and mesure the distance moved by the slower UG it is less than 3 MU so none didmore than the max distance, the speed was respected as the slowest UG did not go faster than it's max speed, the blok remained a blok during the whole move, it did the same action !

That is the point Ambiorix submitted !

A pivot is not a simple forward move as UGs will move different distances !

I would say keep it simple and and limit the speed based on the slowest for the whole move, but Ambiorix point of view has merits and I will have to be the referee for his games so what is now the right answer !

Badhabum and Lawrence G:

What Simon wrote is that the block moves at the speed of the slowest.  Now I know that players (including myself and Simon himself in the past) have played a wheel as you have described with no UG exceeding their max movement distance, but some UGs exceeding the speed of the slowest UG in the block (by being further out).

However as Simon has written, (and pending any official clarification sheet) then the block should wheel at the speed of the slowest UG and no UG should exceed that move distance.

The problem is when players start acting like rules lawyers then you have to write the rules like law. Simon has many qualities but isn't very good at this one.

I hope to produce a sheet with examples for every block move (if only to stop me being pestered by questions when I umpire my next competition!).

Richard

Quote from: badhabum on May 01, 2021, 09:49:48 AMPut a 5 speed UG at the point you will move, put a slower UG as pivot , move the 5 MU and mesure the distance moved by the slower UG it is less than 3 MU so none didmore than the max distance, the speed was respected as the slowest UG did not go faster than it's max speed, the blok remained a blok during the whole move, it did the same action !

In that case, the move was limited by the 5 speed moving 5 MU, which means the move was limited by the speed of the fastest, not the speed of the slowest.
If the 3 speed moved 3 and the 5 speed moved 4.5, then the move would have been limited by the speed of the slowest.
If the 5 speed is not allowed to move further than 3, then all TUGs are limited to the speed of the slowest.



Rule writing is difficult.

FWIW I suspect that what is intended is:

1. No file may exceed its own max move distance.
2. M2, M3, M4, M5, M5, M10, M13 (also possibly C1, C2, C4, F2-4)  the whole block must move as a rigid body.
3. M6 all UGs must advance the same distance. *

* prompts the questions: Does every UG contract by 1-2 BW, or does the block as a whole contract by 1-2 BW? If the latter, could a whole UG of width 2 bases contract to behind another UG?

I'm quite new to these rules but my first and lasting impression of this Block controversy is that the solution is in the name. It is a block move and therefore moves as a block at the speed moved by its slowest member unit. And a block is a block, not a sequence of units touching at the corner. This would be a simple and straight-forward solution to any uncertainty. But, as I say, I'm new to the rules.

For me as referee it is simple : max speed is the slowest makes it easy ( those are rules NOT an historical reenactment )