I played a game recently which involved a lot of shooting in and out of woods. The rules for when being shot at are clear - a base has to be completely in to benefit from cover, but we had issues regarding how SUGs are affected when shooting when they were partly in and partly out of the woods terrain. For example:

1. How is a three deep SUG affected when the first rank is completely out, the second rank partly out but the third rank completely in the wood? Can the second & third ranks shoot? Also does the target get cover?

2. If a three-deep SUG file is shooting when all three bases are half in a wood running through one side of the file can the file shoot three deep? Also does the target get cover or does the file have to be completely inside, as for close combat, for the shooting to be affected?

Thank you in advance for any replies.

Covered on the terrain sheet.  SUGs in woods can only shoot in 2 ranks, TuGs in 1 rank.    Any file which has bases partially or wholly in the wood  is treated as being in the wood.

Richard

As for cover - see p. 156, D2&4. If the front edge of the shooting file is out of the woods then the target does not get cover. Cover is determined by the lines drawn from the front corners of the shooting file to the target, and if those lines don't go through the woods then the target can't claim cover.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 04, 2021, 11:17:50 AM
Covered on the terrain sheet.  SUGs in woods can only shoot in 2 ranks, TuGs in 1 rank.    Any file which has bases partially or wholly in the wood  is treated as being in the wood.

Richard

That is the simple case but what about a UG with all but one rank outside the woods ? 1 or 2 ranks in open terrain, one in the woods

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That is the simple case but what about a UG with all but one rank outside the woods ? 1 or 2 ranks in open terrain, one in the woods
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For movement the rules specify any part of the UG in the terrain causes the slowing effect.
For combat the rules specify the edge facing the front edge of the enemy file determines the terrain effect for combat.
For shooting I cannot find the rules specifying anything so I would welcome a clarification.  My instinct is to treat it as for combat, i.e. it is where the front edge of the file is that determines the terrain effect.

Richard

Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 06, 2021, 12:46:09 PM
For shooting I cannot find the rules specifying anything so I would welcome a clarification.  My instinct is to treat it as for combat, i.e. it is where the front edge of the file is that determines the terrain effect.

I agree a clarification would be useful. In the meantime, I'm inclined to be guided by the glossary definitions for "Affected":

Quote
... If a rear rank it can only support if its front edge is not even partially in the terrain.

Given the example where a unit is partially in the forest (can only fight/shoot 1 rank), the front edge of front rank being out of the forest, but rear ranks having front edges in the forest, I would think a common sense approach would be to allow that unit to shoot two ranks: one for front rank out of the forest, and then one (and only one) rank in the forest. TuGs would shoot at full effect but SuGs would be downgraded.

In any case, it would be best if Simon could give a definitive clarification.

You can have only one shooting dice per file.
If the rear ranks are still in the forest then your dice color downgrade.
If the front rank is outside then the cover doesn't apply anymore.

Why so many questions , where is the cheese?

Quote from: Rino on April 06, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
You can have only one shooting dice per file.
If the rear ranks are still in the forest then your dice color downgrade.
If the front rank is outside then the cover doesn't apply anymore.

Why so many questions , where is the cheese?

ask the mouse about the cheese not us 

PUNCH

Quote from: Rino on April 06, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
You can have only one shooting dice per file.
If the rear ranks are still in the forest then your dice color downgrade.
If the front rank is outside then the cover doesn't apply anymore.

Why so many questions , where is the cheese?

Where in the rules did you find that if a rear rank is in the woods/forest you downgrade the shooting ?

Terrain Sheet

I am a little uncertain on this following a similar debate we had on the forum last year about an identical situation but as it related to close combat rather than shooting. As I recall Simon made the point that if for example a pike unit was halfway out of difficult terrain then all of its ranks could count there support factors. The justification was that the figures we mount our figures are on are much deeper than the actual unit would be in practice. It was for this reason that he took the fron base edge to bethe determining factor as to whether or not the unit actually in the terrain.
If my recollection of the debate is correct then it seems strange to me that we are taking a different approach with shooters. If a similar logic is to be applied then only two situations can apply.
1. The front base edge is in terrain and therefore cover applies but shooting factors are reduced.
or
2 The front base edge is outside so no cover applies and also shooting is not penalised.

Quote from: marshalney2000 on April 07, 2021, 11:27:17 AM
I am a little uncertain on this following a similar debate we had on the forum last year about an identical situation but as it related to close combat rather than shooting. As I recall Simon made the point that if for example a pike unit was halfway out of difficult terrain then all of its ranks could count there support factors. The justification was that the figures we mount our figures are on are much deeper than the actual unit would be in practice. It was for this reason that he took the fron base edge to bethe determining factor as to whether or not the unit actually in the terrain.
If my recollection of the debate is correct then it seems strange to me that we are taking a different approach with shooters. If a similar logic is to be applied then only two situations can apply.
1. The front base edge is in terrain and therefore cover applies but shooting factors are reduced.
or
2 The front base edge is outside so no cover applies and also shooting is not penalised.

Yes, combat is clear it is only the edge fighting (not necessariliy the front edge if you are hit in flank or rear) that counts.
For movement it is any part of any base that affects the entire UG.
For shooting it needs clarification.

Richard

To return to my current personal obsession, the definition of "affected":

Quote
Affected (by terrain): Troops whose fighting is impaired by being in terrain. If a rear rank it can only support if its front edge is not even partially in the terrain.

I take it that for this definition, "front edge" refers not to the front edge of the rear rank itself but to the front edge of the file it is part of?

Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 07, 2021, 10:03:17 AM
Terrain Sheet

Found it so funny enough if a shooty UG is in woods, not only will it sees a downgrade of shooting due to lack of ranks but also one more for shooting from woods and so render it near useless ( double downgrade is that intended ? )

Just back so it is correct out of some terrain you downgrade twice ?